DH reread CH 12 -- Cracking a Few Eggs.

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 186485

> Magpie wrote:
> > <snip> There's plenty of things that happen in the books that I think come across as clearly bad without anybody having to point them out. In this case, it's not like I don't think Harry's supposed to having a lapse here. I just think it's the kind of lapse that jkoney describes--a lapse that's not a big deal at all, that's realistic for people in this situation. In fact s/he used the same defense for it, again using the word saint. The difference isn't between thinking Crucio is good or bad--everyone agrees that it's bad. The difference is between whether this is bad in the sense of Crouch using Crucios or bad in the sense of Harry blowing up Aunt Marge or MWPP becoming animagi. I think it's more the latter than the former.
> 
> Carol responds:
> The question of authorial intentions is always tricky, especially since such intentions aren't always expressed or even conscious. All we have to go on here is JKR's remark that Harry has never been a saint, which certainly does come through clearly at this moment. (He may be a Christ figure, to revert to that topic for a moment, but he is assuredly not Christ.)

Magpie:
True--and I don't really mean to put so much weight on it. It's really more just that I feel like her answer in the interview mirrors what I read in the scene in terms of tone. So it seems relevent to the idea that the point of the scene is to ask this question. I don't think JKR takes torture lightly in the real world--she worked for Amnesty. 

Cutting a large chunk here that I agree with.

> Magpie:
> > There's a difference between Crouch's crucios and Harry's. 
> 
> Carol:
> Is there? I'm not so sure. (In any case, Barty Sr. only authorized Crucios; he never uses any Unforgiveable except an Imperius himself.) The Crucios cast by Voldemort, Bellatrix, Krum under Crouch Jr.'s Imperius Curse, Crouch Jr. himself on a spider (whose suffering he was enjoying, to Neville's distress), Amycus, Crabbe-n-Goyle, and Draco (half-hating, half-enjoying what he was doing or he could never have succeeded) are all depicted as terrible. We know what the victims are feeling because the agony has been described by the narrator from Harry's point of view. We've seen the other victims shriek and howl and writhe in agony--exactly as Amycus does. There's no difference--except in the reaction of the good characters.
> 
> Again, what are we to make of it? Harry acting like a Death Eater and the deluded McGonagall approving? Are we also supposed to approve because Harry is, after all, Harry, the Chosen One? Are we supposed to make excuses for him (he was under a lot of stress and Amycus deserved it)? Clearly, he *didn't* use restraint. He *meant* that Curse. He *intended* to inflict the same agony that he, himself, had felt and had not forgotten. Only the Amycus's striking the bookcase and being knocked out cold stopped him.
> I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't approve. I understand his behavior, but I can't excuse it. And "Harry is not a saint" is not sufficient explanation. 

Magpie:
True, but I can't say that a reader who does make excuses for him or feels like this is more just showing that war is hell and he's not perfect is wrong, because that's what it feels like I'm being told in the book. Sure it's wrong, but not wrong in a way many people wouldn't find all that wrong.

Carol: 
> I think that JKR deliberately refrains from having Harry rethink or actively regret that Crucio, in part because, at that point in the story, Harry is still bent on revenge against Snape and still thinks he has to kill Voldemort. Possibly--and I'm only thinking with my keyboard here (speculating, IOW)--he's unconsciously preparing himself to cast an AK, the last and worst of the Unforgiveables and the only way he knows of to kill Voldemort--by casting the other two. He does not yet realize that he has to sacrifice himself, not fight, much less that a second confrontation (in which he can also choose not to kill) will follow the first.

Magpie:
I think that doesn't ever occur to me because Harry rarely rethinks or actively regrets anything. I don't even think he rethinks anything about Snape, he just take the information that Snape was on his side (ha ha, Voldemort!) and switches him into the "good ally" category without having to rethink or regret anything. Sometimes readers even remember regret for Harry that he didn't really have. 

Since DH pretty much drops Harry's hatred of Snape I didn't feel him let go of it before letting Voldemort off. The most important information he gets from the Pensieve is that Snape loved his mother and was a good guy, which I think is the main reason to forgive him. (Plus he's just had his long talk with Dumbledore who assured him of his love and also put his mind in the right place.) His offer of mercy to Voldemort does actually sound like something Harry would have done anyway. That's the type of situation where Harry would have a sense of fair play about it (of course there's no danger of Voldemort actually feeling remorse). 

I guess I just get the opposite impression from reading the story, that Harry certainly can forgive those who've trespassed against him if he hasn't trespassed (so badly) himself. In fact, that's one of the main feelings I got from DH and from the series, that Harry was very much doing that. 

There are many times in canon I've heard readers think Harry was completely in the wrong without Harry himself thinking that, or any of his allies thinking that. If he never even has to know that he was wrong, I don't know how much credit I can give him for learning from it. At other times when people are wrong I get much more of a sense that they're made to know it.

-m