[HPforGrownups] Re: Sadism or not ? McGonagall and her punishments

Shaun Hately drednort at alphalink.com.au
Thu May 21 09:15:22 UTC 2009


No: HPFGUIDX 186695

> Alla:
>
> But that's sort of my point Shawn. You seem to be convinced that
> they have hair regulations because RL schools that you attended
> had uniforms, which is fair enough. But  there is not one reference
> in canon about it, so I just do not see what you are basing it
> besides having RL experience that uniformed schools have hair
> regulations.

Shaun:

Well, first of all, I think there's a very clear reference in canon about 
it. The whole case that we are discussing. Professor McGonnagall tells 
Parvarti to remove the ornamental butterly from her hair.

Have we ever seen Professor McGonagall require a student to do something we 
know to be contrary to the rules of the school? For the life of me, I can't 
think of a single case. But people seem completely willing to decide that 
she suddenly did something like this in the case of Parvarti.

Back in their first year when Snape confiscated 'Quidditch Through The Ages' 
and took points from Gryffindor, stating that it was against the school 
rules for library books to be taken outside, Ron was very quick to say "He 
just made that rule up!". Parvarti, on the other hand, accepts Professor 
McGonnagall's order without question - she doesn't like it, but she does as 
she's told. She doesn't protest that there's no rule. Why would we assume 
that there isn't?

In my view, all the evidence is that Professor McGonagall is a fair teacher 
who follows the rules. Harry describes her as extremely strict but not as 
being unfair.

Secondly, I think the fact that in literally dozens of descriptions of 
students hair that JKR gives us throughout seven books, I can't see a single 
description of a student with any sort of 'extreme' hairstyle. To the best 
of my knowledge and recollection (I'm not going to go through all of those 
again) I can't even recall a reference to a boy having long hair, or to any 
student having hair that isn't of a natural colour, and with the exception 
of Parvarti's butterfly, not a single reference to a girl having anything 
noticeable ornamentation in their hair. If JKR never described hair, this 
wouldn't mean much - but she describes it almost every time she describes a 
student at all.

We have plenty of references to adult males having long hair - just not 
boys. We have references to unusual hair colours in adult women too - but 
not girls.

Harry regards Bill as cool partly because he has a ponytail (and Ginny likes 
it as well) - why out of all the boys whose appearance JKR tells us about at 
Hogwarts, hasn't a single boy got a cool ponytail - especially seeing some 
of the girls seem to like it?

Mrs Weasley wants to trim Bills hair and is concerned at what the bank might 
think about his appearance. Mrs Weasley attacks Harry's hair with a comb 
(and despairs at the fact that it won't lie down) when it is very important 
he makes a good impression at the Ministry for his trial (she also irons his 
best clothes and makes him wash his hair). Good grooming of the hair *does* 
seem to be of some importance in the Wizarding world. I would find it hard 
to believe that in a society where these things are regarded as important 
that the school where the children spend the vast majority of the year 
doesn't consider such matters important enough to regulate.

Alla:
> Here is an example which flatly goes against the rule that you quoted
> and you are saying that it is just one rule and maybe there are still
> others. Maybe, but where exactly?

Shaun:

Plenty of places.

The two cites I gave - St Hilda's and Hurlstone Agricultural High School 
were the second and third references to school thrown up by a google 
(Australia) search for "school uniform" and "hair". The second and third of 
733,000 websites returned by that search. I didn't use the first reference 
simply because I wasn't instantly sure what school it was and I didn't want 
to waste time checking it out when there were schools I know near the top of 
the list.

Do you want me to go through 733,000 websites and examine every single one 
of their uniform rules? I'm sometimes a bit obsessive, but I'm not that 
obsessive.

But here's one more example of a school's uniform rules that concern hair, 
but which don't require it to be tied back if it's long:

"Hairstyles: Hair must be kept in a neat & tidy condition at all times. Girl' - hair may be worn down in a tidy manner or tied back with accessories as 
mentioned below. Boy's - neat collar length hair, no shorter than a No. 2 
cut."

"Hair Accessories: Ribbons, scrunchies, plain hair clips or headbands may be 
worn and must be in our school colours (Dark green / gold)."

(Harvest Christian school - which is about 24th in the list of the 733,000 
websites google returned).

A lot of schools do require long hair to be tied back for safety reasons 
nowadays even if they didn't in the past. But there's still plenty that 
don't.

There are thousands of schools that set rules on hair as part of their 
uniform rules. It's not always the same rules.

Alla:
> Lee has dreadlocks and you seem to acknowledge that most RL schools
> would not find it acceptable, but you think that there are other
> regulations. Maybe, but where exactly?

Shaun:

The only regulation I'm fairly certain Hogwarts has is the only one we've 
seen enforced - that there are limitations on what type of ornamentation 
students can wear in their hair.

Alla:
> How about this? Which regulations about hair do you think Hogwarts
> has besides the alleged regulation that girls are not allowed to
> have ornamental butterflies in their hair?

Shaun:

My guess - Hogwarts regulations for girls hair are most likely similar to 
the ones I just cited above - hair must be neat and tidy, and if it is tied 
back or accessorised, the accesories must be fairly plain.


Alla:
> I went to school  during Soviet Union times and while Perestroyka
> already started while I was studying , school system was still
> operating pretty much as rigidly as it was during soviet times.
>
> We had to wear uniforms ALL THE TIME. I do not remember one
> regulation about the hair we had to follow, like ever. I mean,
> I will venture a guess that if I decided to shave my head bold,
> teachers probably would not like that at all, but otherwise?
>
> I had short hair, long hair, and very long hair, nobody cared
> as far as I can remember.

Shaun:

In some places and in some countries, schools *do* care about their students 
hair. I don't know all that much about education in the Soviet Union as it 
was, nor in Eastern Europe. In all honesty, I don't know all that much about 
education in a lot of countries. But there are two countries where I *do* 
know a lot about their educational history, their educational systems, and 
the way their schools operated.

Australia and the United Kingdom. And both of those two countries are quite 
full of schools that *do* worry about hair, and have been full of schools 
that do worry about hair for quite a long time.

I've just switched over to the British google (www.google.co.uk) and have 
put "school uniform" "hair" into that search engine and asked it to return 
only references from the UK.

First link - Cokethorpe School:

"Hair: Hairstyles are very personal matters and a certain amount of 
individuality is desirable. However, hair must be kept clean, tidy, off the 
face and of reasonable length and style; boys' hair must be above the collar 
and girls' hair must be tied back, up to and including Year 9. Extreme 
bleaches or dyes that are in blatant contrast to the hair's natural colour 
are not permitted. It is at the Headmaster's discretion at all times to 
require a pupil's hairstyle to be modified. All pupils must be clean 
shaven."

The second and third link concern the sales of school uniform specific hair 
accessories - why do schools need school uniform hair accessories? Because 
at many schools they are the only hair accessories permitted.

The fourth link is a British government website discussing the management of 
schools:

"There is no legislation that deals specifically with school uniform or 
other aspects of appearance such as hair colour and style, and the wearing 
of jewellery and make-up, and this is non-statutory guidance. It is for the 
governing body of a school to decide whether there should be a school 
uniform and other rules relating to appearance, and if so what they should 
be. "

Schools have the right to set rules on appearance, including hair.

Fifth link - Bushey Meads School:

""Cult' hairstyles are not allowed. If students come to school with cult 
hairstyles, their parents will be asked to have the hairstyle changed to an 
acceptable style.Until this is done, the student will work in isolation from 
their peers. Please note:  Deciding which hairstyles are 'cult' and which 
are 'acceptable' is the prerogative of the school's Senior Leadership Team."

Sixth link - website of a BBC children's program which discusses news and 
issues of interest to children. A story about an eight year old boy sent 
home from school for having a shaved head in violation of his schools rules.

Why do they have this site? Well, because this is an issue that affects 
millions of children across Britain.

Links seven, eight, and nine - more people selling school uniform hair 
accessories.

Link Ten - Tomlinscote School:

"Hair (Acceptable): Hair should be of one natural colour. It should be 
clean, neat and tidy. Long hair must be tied back in practical lessons. 
Plain colour hair accessories to suit the school uniform. Hair 
(Unacceptable): Extreme hairstyles - for example overly spiked or sculptured 
hair. Shaved areas or razor lines. Obvious steps. Beads, braiding or cornrow 
plaits. Hair must not obscure the face. No fashion accessories."

These are just the first ten links off the web out of 41,400.

I've also grabbed the hairstyle statements from the next ten British schools 
that came up in the search. I'm going to include them at the end of this 
message as a sort of reference just to give an indication of how different 
schools can all have rules on hair, and those rules aren't necessarily going 
to be identical. I won't stick them in here, so people can easily avoid 
them.

Alla:
> What I am trying to say is that you seem to be dismissing that
> the examples that were given go against the rules that you quoted
> and that they still may to have regulations.

Shaun:

No, I'm not doing that at all.

The two examples I previously cited were just intended to show that there 
are schools out there - and not just in totalitarian countries like North 
Korea as one poster had suggested - that do set rules on hair and hair 
accessories as part of school uniform rules. They were not intended to 
suggest that all schools that have rules on hair have the same rules as 
those two schools. There are thousands of schools with rules on hair - and 
the range of rules applied are quite diverse. Some are stricter than others. 
Some only set the most basic rules - clean and tidy. Others restrict 
accessories. Others require long hair to be tied back. There's a huge 
variety of approaches. I think this post might give a better sense of that 
variety, but only by quoting the regulations of about a dozen different 
schools.

It is *normal* for schools in Britain (and in Australia, for that matter) to 
set rules concerning students hairstyles. Not every school bothers, but a 
great many do. I would say that the majority of schools probably do.

While Hogwarts is obviously an unusual school in a lot of ways, for the most 
part it follows a fairly standard model of British school. Most of its 
*non-magical* practices are very similar to those of more typical British 
schools. In my view, it is simply common sense to consider it likely that 
Hogwarts is similar to a normal school - except in cases where we explicitly 
know it isn't.

It is completely normal for a British school to have rules on what girls are 
allowed to wear in their hair. Therefore when we see Professor McGonagall 
reprimanding a student for having something inappropriate in their hair, it 
is completely reasonable to assume she is doing that because Hogwarts has 
such rules. And rather unreasonable to automatically assume that Hogwarts 
doesn't have such rules.

We have references in the text to Hogwarts having *hundreds* of rules. We 
don't know what most of those rules are. But it's reasonable to assume that 
a great many of them are similar to the most common rules in most schools. 
And in British schools with uniforms, one of those is likely to involve 
standards on hair.

Alla:
> The reason why I find Hermione's example the strongest one is because
> to me if the school were to have regulations, I would imagine that the
> purpose of them will be to have the hair neat and that to me means yes,
> either putting Hermione's hair in the bum or clasp, or whatever. She
> does not.

Shaun:

Well, speaking as somebody who is fairly anal retentive about school uniform 
and appearance as a teacher, I can't see any reason why Hermione's hair as 
described would violate uniform rules at *any* school I'm aware of.

Hermione's hair is described as 'bushy'. That's not the same as untidy, not 
by any means.

It is difficult to know what Hermione's hair really looks like - but none of 
the descriptions of it in the text seem to me to describe hair that would be 
unacceptable in even a school that was strict about such matters.

I tried plugging "Hermione Granger" into Google image search to see if I 
could what most people make of Hermione's appearance. Unfortunately nearly 
all depictions are either photos of Emma Watson, or art that has obviously 
been heavily influenced by Emma Watson. But even so, I can't see a single 
image in which Hermione's hair is unacceptable according to the standards 
I've seen in schools.

Alla:

> I am very impressed by extensive canon you quoted about her hair and
> which I snipped, but I do not see that any of those references show
> that her hair are regulated. IMO of course.

Shaun:

They don't, but they weren't intended to. They were intended to show that at 
no point in the books is Hermione's hair described in any way that most 
schools would find unacceptable even if they do have rules. You seem to 
believe Hermione's hair is described in a way that would be unacceptable. 
I'm finding it difficult to see why.

Is Hermione's hair ever described as being unclean (except for the brief 
period it has bits of twigs in it)? Or unkempt? Or even untidy? No. Bushy is 
the most common term used to describe it, and I've never encountered a 
prohibition against bushy hair in any British or Australian school.

That's it for me at the moment - what follows is simply the ten easily found 
references to hair rules at ten British schools I mentioned above, to 
illustrate how schools can have rules on hair, without them all being the 
same rules. If you're not interested in reading that - well, no need to read 
any further in this message.

"Hair must always be tied back using a plain navy hair accessory.  Braided 
hair, hair extensions and inappropriate use of hair dye are not compatible 
with school uniform and not allowed in school."

"Boys' and girls' hair should be clean, neat and tidy and not excessively 
dyed, streaked or shaven and should have no motifs. Hair should not conceal 
eyes or face and facial hair is NOT permitted. Hair accessories should be 
black. Boys' shoulder length hair MUST be tied back"

"Extreme hairstyles are not allowed.  Greases or gels should only be used to 
encourage the hair to flow in a natural way, following the contour of the 
scalp.  They should not be used to cause the hair to be any more prominent 
that would normally be the case.  Hair may be cut short, but should be 
uniform in appearance.  It is not acceptable to have fashionable icons, 
patterns or distinctive layering cut into the hair.  If hair is to be 
coloured the colours chosen should be of a natural colour, and be consistent 
with the rest of the hair colour.  Highlights and extensions should 
similarly be consistent with the rest of the hair style and colour. 
Colouring streaks of hair in a prominent way (eg a different colour to the 
natural colour of the hair) is not allowed.  Equally hair should be tied 
back. Braids, beading, etc should be secured in such a way as to prevent 
possible harm to other students."

"Hair: Clean, neat and tidy, avoiding outrageous or cult styles and obvious 
colourings. No hair extensions or artificial hair are allowed without prior 
permission.Hair jewellery, apart from plain navy or black bands or clasps to 
hold hair back, is not permitted. Religious headwear should be navy or 
black.All long hair must be tied away from the face in all practical 
activities for health and safety reasons."

"Hair style, length and colouring should be suitable for school and such 
that it does not draw particular attention to the individual. Boys hair 
should be no longer than the top of their shirt collar, shaven or part 
shaven styles will not be allowed. Dyed hair will not be allowed. Grade 3 is 
the minimum acceptable length. Girls' hair should be an acceptable style. 
Dyed hair will not be allowed. Elaborately braided, beaded or extended 
styles are not deemed suitable for school. Facial piercings of any type, 
with the exception of girls' earrings, will not be allowed."

"Hair should be clean and in a style acceptable to the ethos of the school. 
It should be of uniformnatural hair colour. Long hair may be tied back. 
Shaven or partly shaven heads will not be acceptable. Hair accessories 
should be discreet and either black or blend with the hair colour."

"HAIRSTYLES should not follow extremes of fashion within the context of the 
school; eg wedges, stepped hair, skinhead cuts, spiked, coloured hair or 
hair extensions.  Hair preparations are not allowed.  All male pupils should 
be clean shaven, and hair should be cut clear of the face and clear of the 
collar at the back.  Girls' hair, if below shoulder length, must be tied 
back at all times."

"Hair must be of a suitable style for School.  For reasons of safety it must 
be clear of the face and, if long, tied back.  Braiding of hair is not 
allowed.  Hair dye is not permitted.  Hair accessories, (ribbons, hair 
bands, etc.) should be navy blue in Winter, white in Summer; or for 
scrunchies, School dress material may be used."

"Hair should always be kept clean and well groomed.  No exaggerated hair 
styles or colours are permitted.  Hair should be off the collar. Hair is 
expected to be neat and of a natural colour.  Boys should not have extremely 
short hair or excessively long hair (below the shirt collar).  Ponytails for 
boys are not allowed."

"Hair should be of a sensible style and colour with no wedges, lines, 
extension braids, etc. Hair should not be dyed.  Too many clips or bobbles 
in girls' hair are not acceptable.  The wearing of hair gel is not suitable 
in school."

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia 





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