Draco and Intent: Re: Snape and Harry’s Sadism (was: Lack of re-examination)

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 186799

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> > > >>Montavilla47:
> > > It's not like you have to chose between Ron and Draco... <snip> 
> > 
> > Betsy Hp:
> > Exactly!  And your tying Harry-Ron-Draco with "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"'s Buffy-Willow-Cordelia is dead on, I think.  As a viewer I could never have chosen between Willow and Cordelia, and I'm glad I didn't have to. :)
> > 
> Pippin:
> The thing is, it wasn't Harry's idea or even Ron's that Harry had to choose between Ron and Draco. 

Montavllla47:
Right.  My point was, whether it was Harry (who did choose), or Draco (who 
insisted that Harry choose), the *reader* isn't obligated to choose.  Nor, 
according to the "opposites attract" trope that such an inauspicious beginning 
between Harry and Draco signals, is it necessary for Harry to accept Draco on 
Draco's terms.  

In other words, it wasn't impossible for Harry to become friends with Draco, 
but it would have required that Draco modify his values to include respecting
Ron and Hermione--even if he wasn't cordial to them.

Pippin:
Ron was clueless about the Weasley/Malfoy feud at that point (his brothers will tell him about it in Book 2). It's Draco who says  that some wizard families are the wrong sort and if Harry wants to be friends with him he'll  avoid the Weasleys, who have red hair and more children than they can afford. So he's not talking "blood traitors" either at this point. AFAWK, it's the Weasley looks and their style that Draco finds unbecoming.

Montavilla47:
To me, it seemed as though Draco was parroting his parents' beliefs about
the Weasleys.  He had no way of knowing, unless he had heard about it
from *someone* that the Weasleys had "too many children."

So, it's not exactly Draco who finds the Weasleys unbecoming, but Draco
trumpeting the classist views of his father.  And those views could have
been changed--unless children's minds and souls really are set in stone 
at eleven.  

Pippin:
>  Harry and Ron will eventually learn a lesson about choosing friends who are "cool." But it's Draco who wanted to be friends with Harry Potter because that would be cool -- he wasn't so friendly to the boy he met in Madam Malkin's shop, when he  didn't sound sorry that Harry's  parents were dead and made it clear that people from Muggle families were the wrong sort. 
>

Montavilla47:
I don't recall Draco saying that people from Muggle families were the 
wrong sort.  I recall him saying he'd heard Hagrid periodically got drunk
and set his hut on fire, and that he'd leave school rather than be sorted
into Hufflepuff.  

He may not have sounded sorry about Harry's parents being dead, but
that doesn't mean he wasn't trying to be friendly to a random, scrawny, 
specky kid.  After all, it was Draco who started the conversation in the 
first place.  

As for Ron and Harry eventually learning to befriend the "uncool" (Luna
and Neville), I think that was a lesson Draco didn't need to learn.  You'd
be hard pressed to find two less cool friends than Crabbe or Goyle.  And
Draco's girlfriend, Pansy, is described as a pug-nosed cow.  Of all the 
fellow Slytherins in Draco's year, only Blaise Zabini seems to have any
kind of "cool."

Pippin:
> I agree that Draco is not just an arrogant bully. That's the lesson that Harry had to learn about him, that he, Harry, can sympathize with a bully and feel the same need to save him that he feels about people he likes better. And that every life is worth saving because to someone that life is precious.

Montavilla47:
I agree.  The ultimate lesson about Draco seems that, while annoying 
and potentially murderous, he's not bad enough to kill or be left to 
burn to death.

Pippin;
>    But Harry didn't learn anything that could stop Draco from being a bully, because that was Draco's choice, not his. Draco did discover  that if you're not the biggest bully on the playground, bullying may not pay, especially if the biggest bully isn't into sharing. And he learned that he  doesn't have what it takes to be the biggest bully. But he'd still like to have it, and that, IMO, is what makes him non-sympatico with Harry. 

Montavilla47:
Who is the biggest bully in this scene?  Voldemort?  Because, while I 
agree that Draco would have gladly been the biggest bully up to end of
HBP, I don't see any indication that he wanted it after the scene with 
Dumbledore on the tower.  

All he seems to want after that, with the exception that ambiguous 
scene in the RoR, is to be left alone.

Pippin:
> I think the books make it very clear that it would be impossible to be Harry's friend and not be Ron's or Hermione's, and I can't recall even a theory that Draco has a secret desire to befriend Ron - please point me at it if it exists. At any rate, Lucius and Narcissa would not have been best pleased. 

Montavilla47:
I agree with you about the Trio being a package deal (from mid-PS/SS onwards
--Draco might have been able to befriend just Ron and Harry before the Troll
incident).  

But... Draco did visit Ron in the hospital wing after Ron was bitten by the 
dragon.  He ended up nicking the letter from Charlie, but there's no way
that he could have known it was there when he went.  And, that moment
does show that Ron and Draco could hold a civil conversation.

Pippin:
>  And once we understand how close Draco is to Lucius and Narcissa, it really doesn't make sense that he would reject their beliefs and values. So Draco too learned there were more important things than coolness. :) Draco's a loyal son, and paradoxically, that's one of the reasons Harry becomes sympathetic to him. 

Montavilla47:
I think that depends.  Plenty of people in real life are close to their
parents and yet end up rejecting at least some of their values.  That's
pretty much a natural process.

I mean, Bill probably loves his parents, but he still wears his hair long
--rejecting Molly's values regarding hair length.  He also marries a 
girl she disapproves of.  

Now, was Draco going to do all this rejecting right after getting to 
Hogwarts?  Of course not.  But he had seven years to change his views.
And, they could have changed at any time and for any number of 
reasons.

> Betsy_Hp:
>  Draco was *way* too vulnerable to play 'bully' well.)
> 
> Pippin:
> I agree, except I think his vulnerability is intentional, and Harry eventually responds to it. Who says bullies can't be vulnerable? I don't think we're supposed to hate Draco at the end, I think we're supposed to feel a bit sorry for him, and sorry for Scorpius, and to hope that eventually there might be Malfoys who wouldn't disown their kids for marrying a Weasley or a Muggleborn. But there's nothing Harry can do to make that happen. 
> 
> In the first book we're told that facing the mountain troll together made the Trio friends, but we also hear about Snape, who could never forgive James for saving him. So it's apparent  from the beginning that not everyone's mind works the same way.
> 

Montavilla47:
That's an interesting connection to make.  I never once connected the Troll
incident to the James/Snape relationship.  Probably because we didn't know
anything about the situation where James saved Snape.  From the beginning,
it sounded like something that happened later in their school days--and the
clear parallel was drawn by Dumbledore between James/Snape and 
Draco/Harry.  

Which, when you think about it, practically screams foreshadowing for Harry
or Draco to save the other--so that we can the new generation creating 
a happier outcome.

Which is what happens--Harry does save Draco from the fiendfyre, and,
although they never become friends, Draco doesn't seem to be holding
a grudge about it.