CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN LONG

[potioncat]

No: HPFGUIDX 188413

> Alla:> 
> As you said it is his story and thus we see his and his friends' deeds, but I do not believe that it would so out of the question for other Gryffindors to conduct them. For example I do not believe that Ginny's attempt to retrieve the Sword required any less courage than facing the Troll. And I certainly agree with Dumbledore that Neville's attempt to stop Trio in book 1 required a lot of courage which was just applied in a different way.

Potioncat:
Oh, I think I get it now. In an earlier post you said that you didn't think Slytherins would rush in to save someone the way Harry and Ron did. I think that is stereotyping, but at the same time, I think that what Harry and Ron did was so brave, that not many students of any house would have had that courage.

I think among all the houses there might have been students brave enough. I don't know. I just wouldn't say something along the line of "All Gryffindors would be brave enough to do this but no one else would be." 

And within Gryffindor we see many different types of courage.

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> Alla:
> 
> Which one of Sorting Hat's songs would you like me to quote? Because I am seriously too lazy to quote all of them . I thought Hat was being very clear – students with this quality go there, with this one to another House?

Potioncat:
I think we are not communicating; it sounds as if we read the Sorting Hat differently but I'm not sure if we agree or disagree. 

Yes, students are chosen for Houses based on four main traits. That doesn't mean each student arrives with only one trait. So a student would not go into Gryffindor if he were *not* brave. 


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> Alla:
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> Where do you get that this quality is not supposed to define the student? All these students are extremely brave are they not? I mean granted we do not know one way or another about Romilda, but she did not show any cowardice at least that I remember of.
snp
> 
> I think it is NOT realistic for person to be defined by one quality AT ALL, but I believe this is what books shows me, thus I am saying that vast majority of students are NOT realistic characters.

Potioncat:
Yes, they are all brave. I don't mean it doesn't describe them. We agree, it is not realistic to define or describe the students by only one trait. I'm just saying that while one trait is used to sort them, it does not define or limit them at Hogwarts or in the WW. They may have a good amount of the other houses traits as well.

 
> Alla:
> 
> And to me it was always pretty clear that Sorting Hat never intended to put Harry anywhere but in Gryffindor. I always thought Hat was just playing games with Harry, testing him. However, sure it is a possibility that he could have fit in other houses, so my question is don't you think that 95% of the students should have had the same conversation with the Hat that Harry had in order for all of this to be a tiny bit realistic?

Potioncat:
Wow, we do read this differently! I left out the part where the Sorting Hat says that sorting Harry is difficult. Yes, I think the Sorthing Hat took a moment or two to consider Harry's attributes. And I think he could have correctly sorted him into any of several houses. Same for Hermione, DD, Percy and I'm sure others. That's why some students take longer than others. I don't think the Sorting Hat was playing with Harry.
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> Alla:
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> I guess to me it is a given if House known for intelligence and not anything else that means that that is what most members of this House are intelligent first and foremost. You are saying that we do not hear that they are NOT so and so, that means that they ARE so and so? This does not work for me, I need an affirmative statement.

Potioncat:
DD is known for his inventions and knowledge--that's cleverness. He's known for defeating GG--that's courage.

Tonks, a Hufflepuff is an auror. An auror needs to be brave. If the WW thought only Gryffindor's were brave they wouldn't accept students from Hufflepuff.

Throughout the series there are examples of students who each have several positive traits--not just the one set associated with their own house.

If you could use science or magic to evaluate a person for 4 traits--courage, loyalty, wit, ambition--you would find differing amounts in each person. Some may have very little of a trait, and some may have great amounts of all. 

What if the students were sorted by the color they were wearing on the train. Everyone with yellow goes here, blue over there, red in the middle and black to the side. Only hardly anyone would be wearing just one color. So it would depend on how much of the color the student was wearing, or if the colors of his clothes were pretty equal, maybe he would go the the area with the least amount of students. He fits there as well as the other sites.

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> Alla:
snip
> 
> So here we have an allegory, right? We have Woman which symbolizes wisdom. Some time ago I started thinking about houses that way, you know? I started to think about Houses as allegories for intelligence, courage, ambition, etc. And I am thinking that maybe she was interested in showing how people with courage, ambition or what say behave during the hard times, times of war. But that to me means that she for the most part was not interested in realistic portrayal of the characters, I mean, save few exceptions, etc. I wonder if she was thinking in symbols and allegories primarily when she was thinking about Houses, and maybe she was saying that in Harry and Hermione, and maybe somebody else we have symbolic unity of the Houses.


Potioncat:
Got it.
Here's where I think it's important to identify when we're having a literary discussion and when we're discussing the story from within. I've been talking about the houses as I see them in this WW where brooms can fly and women can turn into cats.

I would take a different stand if we're talking about the houses as symbols, and how JKR considers the traits or how she treats them in this body of work.