CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 188412

Alla:
Well, yes and do not forget about selfless rescues, but isn't Trio supposed to
be the face of Gryffindors? And Draco the symbol of Slytherins?

Potioncat:
Are you saying that Harry is just another Gryffindor with no exceptional
qualities? Because I think he is the bravest of the brave. I don't think every
Gryffindor would have reacted like he did to the troll. No offense to
Gryffindor; I just think it took exceptional courage for a pair of 11-year-old
to face a troll.


Alla:

I  am not saying that Harry is just another Gryffindor. I think he is very brave and I certainly  cannot say whether his courage is five percent higher or twenty percent lower than usual Gryffindor, but yes I do not believe he is meant to be portrayed as exceptionally brave, meaning so much braver than his house mates.

As you said it is his story and thus we see his and his friends' deeds, but I do not believe that it would so out of the question for other Gryffindors to conduct them. For example I do not believe that Ginny's attempt to retrieve the Sword required any less courage than facing the Troll. And I certainly agree with Dumbledore that Neville's attempt to stop Trio in book 1 required a lot of courage which was just applied in a different way.


>> Alla:
Oh, I mean, that is nice interpretation, but to me what Sorting Hat says is that
one quality is so dominant in the students' characters that this is the reason
why they are sorted in one house. IMO of course.

Potioncat:
I used to think that too and I think it's because we as a group hyper-analyze
everything. Can you point me to the statement that makes you think that?

Alla:

Which one of Sorting Hat's songs would you like me to quote? Because I am seriously too lazy to quote all of them . I thought Hat was being very clear – students with this quality go there, with this one to another House?


Potioncat:
I think the Sorting Hat uses the qualities to select the House the student will
go into, but that quality is not supposed to limit or define the student. Look
at how different the Gryffindors of Harry's time are. Percy, Cormac, George,
Neville. Lavender, Romilda. <SNIP>

Alla:

Where do you get that this quality is not supposed to define the student? All these students are extremely brave are they not? I mean granted we do not know one way or another about Romilda, but she did not show any cowardice at least that I remember of.

Of course I sure hope that bravery is not the only thing that their characters are consist of, but again to me it is the question of domination. I think I am not expressing myself too clearly.

I think it is NOT realistic for person to be defined by one quality AT ALL, but I believe this is what books shows me, thus I am saying that vast majority of students are NOT realistic characters.

Potioncat:
Here is what the Sorting Hat says to Harry, "Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad
mind either. There's talent, oh my goodness, yes--and a nice thirst to prove
yourself, now that's interesting
So where shall I put you?"

I read Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, Slytherin or possibly Hufflepuff depending on
whether the thirst to prove himself indicated a willingness to work hard or
ambition. When Harry says not Slytherin, the Sorting Hat says how Slytherin
would fit. Then the Sorting Hat picked one, based on Harry's request. It sounds
to me as if Harry would have fit well in several houses, but I think he was more
comfortable in Gryffindor than he would have been in Ravenclaw.

Alla:

And to me it was always pretty clear that Sorting Hat never intended to put Harry anywhere but in Gryffindor. I always thought Hat was just playing games with Harry, testing him. However, sure it is a possibility that he could have fit in other houses, so my question is don't you think that 95% of the students should have had the same conversation with the Hat that Harry had in order for all of this to be a tiny bit realistic?

Potioncat:
<SNIP>
So a student is sorted and something like this would happen, "Welcome to
Gryffindor. We are known for our courage." Or "Welcome to Ravenclaw. We are
known for our wit and knowledge." The student must believe (or hope) the Sorting
Hat saw that quality in him and then can be proud of his trait. (Whether a
student is ever put in a house he doesn't want, I couldn't say.) But it isn't
"Welcome to Gryffindor, we aren't loyal or clever or ambitious, but boy are we
brave!"

Alla:

I guess to me it is a given if House known for intelligence and not anything else that means that that is what most members of this House are intelligent first and foremost. You are saying that we do not hear that they are NOT so and so, that means that they ARE so and so? This does not work for me, I need an affirmative statement.

>> Alla:
Again, please do not get me wrong, I do not find anything wrong with House
system as long as I think of it as symbolical showing of what human being
consists of, I think it is fun to think of what courage and/or ambition can or
cannot do and sometimes we see more real characters, like mixed, but no I cannot
think of Houses as something aspiring in RL.


Potioncat:
Sorry, you've lost me.

Alla:

Let me try again then. You know how painters who did allegoric paintings devoted to Greek or Roman period often portrayed Wisdom or Anger or whatever quality as Woman?

So here we have an allegory, right? We have Woman which symbolizes wisdom. Some time ago I started thinking about houses that way, you know? I started to think about Houses as allegories for intelligence, courage, ambition, etc. And I am thinking that maybe she was interested in showing how people with courage, ambition or what say behave during the hard times, times of war. But that to me means that she for the most part was not interested in realistic portrayal of the characters, I mean, save few exceptions, etc. I wonder if she was thinking in symbols and allegories primarily when she was thinking about Houses, and maybe she was saying that in Harry and Hermione, and maybe somebody else we have symbolic unity of the Houses.

I mean same as the dragon whom Trio frees to me is a symbol of Hogwarts for example. Do not wake up sleeping dragon, etc.

Does that make more sense?

Alla