Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER

[SteveE]

No: HPFGUIDX 188551

> Jean:
> <SNIP>
> It _does_ make a difference how a person is raised and/or treated by others
> when they grow up.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Of course it does, I have not said that it does not. I am disagreeing with the degree of how much it does. I do not believe that a person who became a traitor for example would have become one if he did not have it in him. I do not believe that a person who became a member of the gang of murderers and torturers would have become one if the person did not want to.
> 

Steve adds: 
As a psychotherapist I can agree that environment plays a part in a person's personality, especially during the formative years.  But I agree w/ Alla that there is a very definate component of free will, of personal choices for what you say and do that is independent of your upbringing.  You don't have to become the person your parents were for example unless you make a conscious choice to do so. Marietta for example was influenced to some degree by her mother's position at the MOM, and her mother's support of Umbridge's policies, but that didn't excuse her for betraying her schoolmates.  She made that choice all on her own in the end, with input from family and friends factoring in.  She had peer group pressures to go along w/ the DAD class members and not betray them as well, yet she ignored those influences and acted as she did.  No one did the Imperius curse on her to get her to go to Umbridge, she did that on her own and I blame Marietta, not her parents or Hermione for her actions.  

> Jean:
> <SNIP>
> For instance, someone who
> grew up in a home where there was a lot of hitting would notice fairly
> quickly that Snape only yells, and never hits--even the jar of cockroaches
> misses Harry, and that's after Harry does something extraordinarily rude
> (for which he never apologizes).
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, no, not just after Harry does something extraordinary rude. Harry did not do anything extraordinary rude on the first lesson. Harry did not do anything extraordinary rude on so many other instances and Snape still abused him verbally as far as I am concerned. Harry did not do anything extraordinary rude when Snape took the book he was reading away from him. Harry did not do anything rude whatsoever when Snape destroyed his potion.
> 
> Sure, Snape usually yells, he is not a physical but verbal abuser as far as I am concerned
>

Steve adds:  I also agree that while Snape did physically abuse Harry or other students, he was indeed guilty of verbal abuse.  When he told Hermione for example "I see no difference", that was just plain nasty.  JKR has said in her interviews that she patterned Snape after a sadistic and really nasty real life person, and so I find no canon or common sense reason to dispute that Snape is verbally abusive, but not physically abusive, no matter how much one would subjectively want to believe so.

> Jean:
> Snape had a valid expectation of Harry
> starting up the 'Snivellus' nickname again, and laughing with his friends
> over it; the fact it didn't happen is something that Snape could not have
> expected. After all, even Lily used that nickname in the Worst Memory.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I completely disagree that it is a valid expectation that little boy who just arrives in the world unknown to him will use a rude nickname used by his father he never knew in part thanks to Snape dear.  He is a boy for crying out loud, an orphaned boy in part thanks to Snape. 
><SNIP>
I think Snape owed Harry so so much that this is a debt he should have been paying, I just think he should have been decent enough to treat the boy he helped rob of childhood better. I do not think protecting his life gave him any right to verbal abuse.
> 
> 
Steve adds:  I too see no justification for Snape expecting Harry to behave like his parents.  A really objective and fair teacher lets each new student start out w/ a clean slate and doesn't allow any preconceived expectations or predudices and biases about that child because of his/her parents or other family members influence their behaviour toward that student.  Harry is an innocent victom here and didn't deserve the verbal abuse he got from Snape.  I don't even consider Harry's responses in his first Potions class to be disrespectful or "cheeky". 

> Jean:
> <SNIP>
 You can turn someone bad if you treat them horribly
> enough; social workers have files and files of clients who were abused and
> then later turned up in the justice system. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I guess I just do not see the parallels how Neville and Peter were treated by their peers and I do not see the potential for treachery in Neville. Yes, there are abused people who cannot break cycle of abuse and there are those who can. And  I feel bad for all of them, but no, I do not think it is a justification for them to continue abusing others and that is what I feel Snape did to Harry. I do not think you can **turn somebody bad**,
><SNIP>

Alla
>
Steve adds:  And social workers and counselors like me also have files and files of clients who were abused and then later on turned out to be very law abiding and kind and considerate people.  Many avoid the pattern of abuse set forth unfortunately by people from their past.  Many remember how bad it felt to be abused and made good on their promises never to allow themselves to act that way towards others. Being abused doesn't always equal becoming an abuser.

In the epilogue, were we given any reasons to believe that Harry was abusive to his children? He didn't carry on the pattern of abuse of the Dursleys did he? NOT.  He by all we could tell was a kind and loving father, and not abusive at all.