Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 188207

> > Carol responds:
> > The situations aren't comparable. Sirius Black was trapped, partly through his own rashness in appearing in dog form on Platform 9 3/4 and partly through DD's orders, in a home that he hated. He chose to leave that hated safe place to save Harry.
> 
> > 
> > The Grangers, in my scenario, would be in Australia (with their memories intact), safe from DEs and free to move wherever they liked. They would have no knowledge of what was happening to Hermione and certainly wouldn't rush home to save her as Sirius rushed to the MoM to save Harry (and vice versa) because they'd have no way of knowing that she was in danger or where she was or how to rescue her.
> 
> Pippin:
> Sirius returned in GoF because Harry's life was in danger and he felt it was his duty as a godfather to be nearby in case Harry needed him. AFAIK, he went to the MOM for the same reason. I don't see what relevance the dog episode has except to show that he  wasn't being kept at GP by force.
> 
> I don't see why the Grangers couldn't feel the same way -- that it was the right choice to hide for their daughter's sake, but maintaining that choice in the face of any immediate threat would be just as impossible for them as it was for Sirius. 


Montavilla47:

So, in this scenario, Hermione sits her parents down and 
says something like this:

"Mother and Father, I need to go save the wizarding world, but
it's very dangerous.  I'd like you to go to Australia so that you'll
be out of danger, while I am risking my life.

"I think it would be for the best if I modify your minds so that 
you don't remember that I exist.  Because, if I don't, Voldemort
might send out a false report that I've been kidnapped and 
tortured, which I'm sure you wouldn't be able to resist acting 
on.  On the other hand, there might be a *real* report of my
being kidnapped, tortured, or killed because that's what
I'm facing.

"But, it's really best if you are both freed from the knowledge
that I'm your daughter.  If you were to respond to the information
that I've been kidnapped, then you'd probably be identified and
kidnapped.  At which point, I'd have to come rescue you.  Because,
of course, I would never be able to sit by if I learned that that
had happened.

"So, shall I go ahead and modify your brains now?"

Pippin:
> It was no one's intention to make Sirius to go to the Ministry. It was an unintended consequence of Snape's information that Harry *might* be there.  Sirius responded to a threat which, although plausible, might not have existed at all. So the fact that the Grangers wouldn't  know what was actually happening to Hermione or what they could do about it might not keep them away.
> 
> Sirius didn't know what he could do for Harry by returning to England, and as it turned out, there wasn't much.  He  didn't know what he could do for Harry if Harry was at the Ministry. If Voldemort was there, maybe all he could do was show his loyalty to Harry by dying with him. That didn't keep him away either.

Montavilla47:
As I wrote that monologue, I realized that if Voldemort were 
going to make up a false report that Hermione has been 
kidnapped in order to bring her parents out of hiding, he could 
more easily create one about the *Grangers* being kidnapped in 
order to lure Hermione into a trap.  Which is exactly what he did 
with Sirius and Harry.

After all, I'm sure that Kreacher also passed on the information
that Sirius loved Harry more than anyone else in the world.  But
Voldemort didn't try to lure Sirius anywhere.  He tried to get 
Harry instead.

Even though Sirius probably had a lot of valuable information
about Harry that Voldemort could have used.  And he wouldn't
be missed as quickly as Harry was.


> Carol:
> > Yes, they'll be worried about their daughter, but parents of American soldiers in Afghanistan worry about their children, too, and no one places a memory charm (or whatever form of magic she performed on them). 
> 
> Pippin:
> In most cases they can write to their children,  and even if their child is on a mission where that's impossible, they have the support of other parents and the military. The Grangers will have no one, because not even the Order is supposed to know what Hermione is doing. And that's not because Hermione is too arrogant to trust her elders but because she did trust them. Before he died, Dumbledore ordered the Trio to keep their quest a secret. And as Harry says, he didn't tell them to stop obeying his orders if he died.

Montavilla47:
I don't think they didn't know that she was going off with 
Harry.  Arthur lent her a tent.  And someone taught her 
those protective spells.  

What they didn't know was exactly what Hermione would
be doing with Harry.  But they must have known that she
was going.  They knew Ron was going--Arthur helped him
set up his elaborate cover story.

And, as for the support that Muggle families receive when
their children are at war, the Grangers would be more likely
to get that sort of support were they put into a safe house
where there would be some Order wizards around to help 
them understand the situation and possibly tune their
block of wood into "Pottertalk," which would be a great
morale booster, I'm sure.


> > Carol responds:
> > No one would know that they were in a safe house. Besides, the Dursleys know more about Harry than the Grangers would, and there's no indication that the DEs are going after them once the Order has protected them. The Weasleys, too, resort to safe houses protected by a Fidelius Charm (which Bill can somehow talk about to HRH even though he's not the Secret Keeper for Auntie Muriels' house).
> 
> Pippin:
> Hermione can't set up a Fidelius herself, as far as we know, and she couldn't ask the Order to protect her parents while she's away with Harry since they weren't  supposed to know. If her plan had worked, most people would think that wherever the Grangers went, she'd gone with them. It's only Arthur and Lupin who guess what the Trio planned to do. I think we forget sometimes that no one in the Potterverse knows the Trio as well as we do.
> 

Montavilla47:
As far as we know, she can't do a Memory Charm, either.
Which means that we don't even know exactly what she did
to her parents, beyond making them believe that they are 
other people, with life goals they never had before, and without
any children to explain Mrs. Granger's stretch marks.

And I don't think it's just Arthur and Lupin who "guess" what is
going on.  Mrs. Weasley tries her darnedest to prevent the Trio
from leaving--so she knew that they wanted to go.

And Bill seems pretty clued in that Harry's off on a secret mission
with his brother and Hermione.  

The Order had to know what was going on to some extent--
in order to know approximately how long Harry was intending
on staying at the Burrow.  They never made any contingency 
plans for moving him elsewhere in the event of a Ministry raid,
or Death Eater attack, which indicates to me that they were 
expecting him to take off before too long.


> Carol: 
>  And if the DEs do find them, which is extremely unlikely, modified memories won't protect them.
> 
> Pippin:
> That's a straw man as far as my argument goes. I'm not saying a memory charm would protect them if they were found. I'm saying it would make it much easier for them to avoid being found in the first place. 
> 
> I still think you're underestimating the problems the Grangers have as illegal immigrants. Hermione can give them magicked credentials that won't attract attention from Muggles. But those are just the sort of thing that Ministries of Magic try to keep out of Muggle hands. There may not be any DE's in Australia, but presumably there's a Misuse of Muggle Artifacts department. 

Montavilla47:
But they'd have to have false papers in order to be Wendell
and Monica Wilkins, whether they *believe* that they are or 
whether they are merely *pretending* to be so.  The danger
of detection (in terms of papers or credentials) is the same
in either case.

Pippin:
> And I don't think being dentists in Australia means there's no awkward questions.  Oh, you're from England? Where did you train? D'you know so-and-so? That's the sort of question that would fluster an inexperienced fugitive. 

Montavilla47:
It's also going to fluster someone who hasn't had that
filled in as a backstory by their daughter.  If someone
asks where they trained, and Hermione forgot to give
them a fictional school of dentistry, then they don't 
even have the option of using one they attended--or
one that they thought about attending.  It will just be
a blank.

Unless the Wilkinses have exactly the same history
as the Grangers--with the exception of never having
had a daughter.  Which is possible, I suppose.  

Pippin:
> Whereas enchanted Wendell and Monica can (with Hermione's help) sell or rent the Granger house, liquidate their savings, and live on the proceeds, at least for a while. They can apply for emigrant status and get genuine credentials before they leave England, while  Hermione is still around to cover their tracks. And they won't have any trouble explaining who they are or where they came from. 

Montavilla47:
But they can do all those things even with their memories.
In order to apply for emigrant status and get genuine
credentials, they'll still false identity papers--and they'll
still need to sell or rent the house.  

And they can still have Hermione's help to do it--while
she's around.  And they won't be constantly having to 
ask her who she is while she's helping them.

Pippin:
> They'll have trouble picking up the pieces of their old lives, should that ever become an option. But that's not going to be different if they disappear into an Order safe house or escape to Australia with their memories intact. 

Montavilla47:
I quite agree.  


> > Carol responds:
> > There's no indication that the Grangers could have done something to save Hermione. She's ostensibly saving *them.*
> 
> Pippin:
> 
> What they can do to save Hermione is avoid allowing  Voldemort to gain information he would find useful. They can't do that if they're captured,  so they have to avoid being captured. She's told them a lot about herself and about Harry. That's the  reason she gives for taking such drastic measures to conceal them. It has nothing to do with protecting them from the grief of losing her. That aspect isn't an upside for her. It has her in tears. I see no reason to think they are only for herself.

Montavilla47:
Good.  Let's take that argument about "sparing them grief" 
off the table then.  

As I understand your argument, Hermione needed to keep 
her parents from being captured at all costs.  Both 
because they would be tortured and probably killed, and 
because they could give away valuable information.

That sounds right to me.  

The only disagreement we really have then is whether or 
not Hermione removed her parents' knowledge of her 
existence (and their own identities) with their consent or
without it.

And we don't have conclusive evidence either way.  But 
I'm afraid that a careful, critical reading of the text points
to a greater likelihood of Hermione doing it without their
consent than with it.  

Arguments for Hermione having done it without consent:

1.  There is a history within the books of Wizards modifying
Muggle memories and confunding them without any
consent.  We are told about specific cases in PoA, GoF, and
HBP.

2. There is a personal history of Hermione acting for other 
people's own good without consulting them.  For example, 
she confunds McClaggen without consulting Ron.  She 
cleans up Harry's extra potion without waiting to ask him.
She leaves hats around in the Gryffindor Common Room to
trick elves into picking them up and thus becoming free. 
She puts a curse on a parchment in order to brand traitors
without consulting Ron or Harry.

3. Hermione also has a history of dismissing her parents.
Although she knew they were against her using magic to 
shrink her teeth, she had it done when she had the chance.
She spend most of her holidays with her friends, rather than
her parents.  She lied to them when she wanted to  spend 
Christmas with the Weasleys, telling them that she had to 
stay at Hogwarts to study for her O.W.L.s.

4. All the things that were accomplished (in terms of 
having the Grangers/Wilkinses move to Australia) could
have been accomplished without modifying their memories.
Whether or not they could more successfully impersonate 
their new identities by having their minds magicked is, as far 
as I can see, a toss-up. The only real advantage in doing so 
is that they would go without protest.

5. While it's possible that the Grangers would consent
to losing their memories of Hermione in order to protect
her, there were alternatives (such as hiding them with a 
Fidelius Charm) that are present within the text.  The 
likelihood of parents agreeing to lose all memory of their
child rather than go into hiding in the wonderful world of
magic--or go to the trouble of learning a cover story-
is just not that strong.

I'll let someone else list the evidence that Hermione 
magicked her parents with their consent.  The only
reason I can think of is this one:

1. She got their consent because it would be wrong not
to do so.


> > Carol:
>  They don't know anything useful about either her or Harry. Not even Hermione yet knows where they're going to be, and she certainly hasn't told them that she, Ron, and Harry are going Horcrux hunting. For all they know--or knew--she's going back to Hogwarts.
> 
> Pippin:
> Sirius didn't think knowing that Harry cared about him more than any other living person would be useful to Voldemort. He was wrong. I don't think it was obvious  that Harry's brief romance with Ginny was anything serious on his part. As far as most people know, they snogged for a couple of weeks and then it was over. Even Ron's annoyed with Harry for "messing her about", ie, playing with her feelings. He knows how Ginny feels about Harry, but not how Harry feels about her.

Montavilla47:

This is kind of beside the point, but I find it absolutely 
bizarre that Harry and Ginny were the talk of the school
when they were snogging all over the place--but nobody
thinks it was serious.

Harry broke up with Ginny during Dumbledore's funeral--
I doubt that the few students left at school at that point 
even knew that it had happened.  They would be too busy
watching Dumbledore's body bursting into flames.

(Hey... wait a second.  How did Voldemort pry Dumbledore's
wand from his cold, dead hands if the body had burned up?)

As far as the student body knew, Harry and Ginny were still 
together.  I can't believe tongues wouldn't be wagging--