Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 188206


> Carol responds:
> The situations aren't comparable. Sirius Black was trapped, partly through his own rashness in appearing in dog form on Platform 9 3/4 and partly through DD's orders, in a home that he hated. He chose to leave that hated safe place to save Harry.

> 
> The Grangers, in my scenario, would be in Australia (with their memories intact), safe from DEs and free to move wherever they liked. They would have no knowledge of what was happening to Hermione and certainly wouldn't rush home to save her as Sirius rushed to the MoM to save Harry (and vice versa) because they'd have no way of knowing that she was in danger or where she was or how to rescue her.

Pippin:
Sirius returned in GoF because Harry's life was in danger and he felt it was his duty as a godfather to be nearby in case Harry needed him. AFAIK, he went to the MOM for the same reason. I don't see what relevance the dog episode has except to show that he  wasn't being kept at GP by force.

I don't see why the Grangers couldn't feel the same way -- that it was the right choice to hide for their daughter's sake, but maintaining that choice in the face of any immediate threat would be just as impossible for them as it was for Sirius. 

It was no one's intention to make Sirius to go to the Ministry. It was an unintended consequence of Snape's information that Harry *might* be there.  Sirius responded to a threat which, although plausible, might not have existed at all. So the fact that the Grangers wouldn't  know what was actually happening to Hermione or what they could do about it might not keep them away.

Sirius didn't know what he could do for Harry by returning to England, and as it turned out, there wasn't much.  He  didn't know what he could do for Harry if Harry was at the Ministry. If Voldemort was there, maybe all he could do was show his loyalty to Harry by dying with him. That didn't keep him away either.

Carol:
> Yes, they'll be worried about their daughter, but parents of American soldiers in Afghanistan worry about their children, too, and no one places a memory charm (or whatever form of magic she performed on them). 

Pippin:
In most cases they can write to their children,  and even if their child is on a mission where that's impossible, they have the support of other parents and the military. The Grangers will have no one, because not even the Order is supposed to know what Hermione is doing. And that's not because Hermione is too arrogant to trust her elders but because she did trust them. Before he died, Dumbledore ordered the Trio to keep their quest a secret. And as Harry says, he didn't tell them to stop obeying his orders if he died.

Carol:
How is it right to rob the Grangers of their memories of Hermione? 

Pippin:
Whether there was a robbery or not is what we're discussing. It's not a robbery if you voluntarily give something up. 

Some parents would gladly donate a kidney to save their child. Some parents would never consider such a thing.   But that doesn't mean there aren't many parents who would  feel they'd be selfish to refuse. And it certainly doesn't mean that any child who would accept such a kidney would otherwise attack their parents and take it by force.
 
> Carol responds:
> No one would know that they were in a safe house. Besides, the Dursleys know more about Harry than the Grangers would, and there's no indication that the DEs are going after them once the Order has protected them. The Weasleys, too, resort to safe houses protected by a Fidelius Charm (which Bill can somehow talk about to HRH even though he's not the Secret Keeper for Auntie Muriels' house).

Pippin:
Hermione can't set up a Fidelius herself, as far as we know, and she couldn't ask the Order to protect her parents while she's away with Harry since they weren't  supposed to know. If her plan had worked, most people would think that wherever the Grangers went, she'd gone with them. It's only Arthur and Lupin who guess what the Trio planned to do. I think we forget sometimes that no one in the Potterverse knows the Trio as well as we do.

Carol: 
 And if the DEs do find them, which is extremely unlikely, modified memories won't protect them.

Pippin:
That's a straw man as far as my argument goes. I'm not saying a memory charm would protect them if they were found. I'm saying it would make it much easier for them to avoid being found in the first place. 

I still think you're underestimating the problems the Grangers have as illegal immigrants. Hermione can give them magicked credentials that won't attract attention from Muggles. But those are just the sort of thing that Ministries of Magic try to keep out of Muggle hands. There may not be any DE's in Australia, but presumably there's a Misuse of Muggle Artifacts department. 

And I don't think being dentists in Australia means there's no awkward questions.  Oh, you're from England? Where did you train? D'you know so-and-so? That's the sort of question that would fluster an inexperienced fugitive. 

Whereas enchanted Wendell and Monica can (with Hermione's help) sell or rent the Granger house, liquidate their savings, and live on the proceeds, at least for a while. They can apply for emigrant status and get genuine credentials before they leave England, while  Hermione is still around to cover their tracks. And they won't have any trouble explaining who they are or where they came from. 

They'll have trouble picking up the pieces of their old lives, should that ever become an option. But that's not going to be different if they disappear into an Order safe house or escape to Australia with their memories intact. 

> Pippin:
> 
> > Of course it would be cruel to lose the memories of a child. But how much crueller to live on, knowing that you might have done something to save that child and didn't do it? I think people are assuming that it wouldn't happen, since once Voldemort got the information he wanted the Grangers would be dead anyway. But what if he only captured one?
> 
> Carol responds:
> There's no indication that the Grangers could have done something to save Hermione. She's ostensibly saving *them.*

Pippin:

What they can do to save Hermione is avoid allowing  Voldemort to gain information he would find useful. They can't do that if they're captured,  so they have to avoid being captured. She's told them a lot about herself and about Harry. That's the  reason she gives for taking such drastic measures to conceal them. It has nothing to do with protecting them from the grief of losing her. That aspect isn't an upside for her. It has her in tears. I see no reason to think they are only for herself.

> Carol:
 They don't know anything useful about either her or Harry. Not even Hermione yet knows where they're going to be, and she certainly hasn't told them that she, Ron, and Harry are going Horcrux hunting. For all they know--or knew--she's going back to Hogwarts.

Pippin:
Sirius didn't think knowing that Harry cared about him more than any other living person would be useful to Voldemort. He was wrong. I don't think it was obvious  that Harry's brief romance with Ginny was anything serious on his part. As far as most people know, they snogged for a couple of weeks and then it was over. Even Ron's annoyed with Harry for "messing her about", ie, playing with her feelings. He knows how Ginny feels about Harry, but not how Harry feels about her.

Carol: 
 And no one in their right minds would consent to such magic.

Pippin:
See, that's where we differ. I find it  easy to imagine consenting to such magic, given the situation. Maybe it's just that I've seen some of my relatives struggle with Alzheimer's, and I no longer have the luxury of regarding memories as an inviolable part of my person. I may have to give them up by force some day -- I'd much rather donate them for a cause. 

 I don't think the memory charms are an unintentional squick on JKR's part, though. They make a nice substitute for a pact with the devil as something that would horrify Muggles so much that even enlightened wizards feel that coming out of hiding is impossible.

JKR introduces them through a villain, Gilderoy Lockhart. All through the earlier books we're made to think that Muggles don't notice magic because they're willfully obtuse. It's not until PoA that we find out Muggle memories are being modified, and not until GoF do we learn that it's being done not in case of emergencies only but  for the sake of nothing more than Quidditch.

Pippin