[HPforGrownups] James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))

[Shelley]

No: HPFGUIDX 189893


> Potioncat:
>> Here's my question. Given Geoff's information, do you now consider Head Boy itself to be a flint and no longer relevant to the storythat is, James was not a Head Boy? Or do you consider it canon anyway, and James was a Head Boy. Does this change your perception of events?
> Geoff:
> For me, no. I consider that James was both.
>
> Shelley (in post 189888):
> I just assumed it was a mistake. James was too much of a fun lover, like
> the twins- didn't mean he wasn't responsible in his own way, because he
> was. I never saw him as the type to even want to be head boy- that's a
> "Percy" type who cares what people think of them, loves order and rules
> and all that jazz.
>
> Geoff:
> Not necessarily true in my opinion.
>
> One of my favourite books is "To serve them all my days" by R.F.
> Delderfield. For me, it is a great book because it is set on Exmoor, an
> area I have loved for many years and where I now live and it is about
> the life of a teacher, one with whom I can so often identify.
>
> In one incident, David, the teacher, has to deal with a guy in the Sixth
> Form who is something of a James - boisterous, devil-may-care,
> popular and not unintelligent. When he runs the risk of getting expelled,
> David nominates him to be a prefect in his house. In spite of uncertainty
> on the part of the Headmaster, the pupil goes on to become an
> excellent prefect, and in later years when David has become the
> Headmaster, he returns as a teacher and thanks David for the trust he
> had placed in him from which he developed a great sense of responsibility.
>
> We know that within about two years of leaving Hogwarts, James had
> the responsibility of parenthood, was involved in the battle against
> Voldemort and just over three years after leaving, was dead trying to
> protect his family.
>
> Hence, somewhere between his disastrous confrontation with Snape and
> these events, the thoughtlessness and stupidity which he was exhibiting
> was replaced by a sense of responsibility - and dare one say adulthood?
> Perhaps the growing attraction between him and Lily was one of the
> catalysts to this sea change.
Shelley:
See for me, that maturity he showed with Lily and protection of his 
family is a continuation of that sports theme- fiercely loyal to his 
team (and house) in school, fiercely loyal to his girlfriend, mate and 
newborn son. It's not replaced by a sense of responsibility as much as 
his responsibility has been growing all along, right along with his need 
for challenge and thrill. People who love personal challenges don't stop 
being competitive. Lily and James are fighting Voldemort- the prophesy 
says that Harry was born to ones who had THRICE defied him- this I see 
as James unchanging personality to seek thrills while raising a family. 
I can see him cheering and hooping in joy and he says "yes, we defied 
Voldemort yet again, yet again we got to the best of him" with each 
successive victory as Order of the Phoenix members. I think he's paving 
a way for future generations in his mind. I think it was a line his 
friends were constantly talking to him about- being responsible while 
meeting his need for the next victory. He knew the next challenge lay 
ahead- the prophesy and his family targeted- and they had a plan to win, 
and I'm sure he thought it was a sports tactic to change Secret Keepers 
at the last second to keep Voldemort constantly guessing the strategy 
James would take this time, only that change backfired horribly as James 
didn't realize that Wormtail had already switched loyalties (thus 
betraying "their team"). I don't see James as changing all that much, 
from stupid and reckless to suddenly being a model Head Boy who toed the 
line; rather I see a James who never stopped being competitive and 
vibrant in life, who possibly felt trapped into hiding and wouldn't have 
stayed there for long before he went out and did something bold to get 
at Voldemort once again.

I think he always walked that fine line of being reckless and 
responsible, of being on the edge, driven by competitiveness and the 
need to win. Maybe even getting Lily was originally that motive 
(ultimate victory over Snape and the other "competititors"), although I 
do believe that he loved her and his new son with every fiber of his 
being. I think Lily saw in him that balance of competitiveness and 
responsibility, one that drove him to win in some important areas of 
life that mattered to her (it won her, it won against Voldemort 3 times, 
and they were on the same side in that fight as Order of the Phoenix 
members). James not being head boy doesn't change at all my 
understanding of the events as they are described in canon- James is the 
popular one, he's the "defacto" leader of Griffandor as the Quidditch 
Captain in a winning season- no Head Boy could have had as much pull 
over his House or more influence as he had. (Notice when he teased 
Snape, in Snape's memory, that no one stepped in to challenge him on 
it.) He didn't need to be head boy at all, nor did he ever "need to 
change to become responsible". Hagrid's goof, if it was that, simply 
could have been the mistake that the "real head boy" was someone that 
people barely remembered, he left that little of a mark in people's 
minds. But James, James was a hero of Griffandor, and so Hagrid maybe 
makes the mistake of thinking James had to have been head boy with as 
much pull as he had on his fellow classmates and on that of the younger 
students. I know I'm taking a few liberties in imagining James, but I 
don't think they are inconsistent at all with canon. James was a 
Quidditch Captain who lead his team to victory, James was an order of 
the Phoenix member who lead the Order to victory in key battles against 
Voldemort. I see no need for James to change one bit. Sticking with the 
sports theme- what do people remember of a star player, or someone who's 
been idolized the way James was after his death? Do they remember a foul 
committed in a game? Those faults are overlooked often before the end of 
the game, and certainly never remembered after the end of a winning 
season. When people talk about a star player years later, they remember 
only the good times, and so I don't doubt at all that people forgot what 
an insensitive jerk James could be at times, especially because in this 
case James was dead and it would have been bad form to dishonor his 
memory. They had a good reason to forget his faults.

I reject the need for a catalyst, a sea of change or even a turning 
point in his life (I don't see evidence in canon for it, frankly). He's 
enemies with Snape, and because Snape serves Voldemort, he's still 
enemies with Snape after they leave school. (I think Sirius Black's 
adult attitude of Snape is a fair estimation of how James would have 
continued to mistrust Snape.) James is responsible and thrill seeking as 
a student and Captain, and he continues that as a husband, father and 
Order of the Phoenix member. He was a leader before he left Hogwarts, 
and he's a leader afterward. I see him as consistent in character and 
actions, unchanging in basic nature but maturing as all the students did 
with time. I think people found it easy to overlook James's faults when 
he took them to victory. As long as James was giving them victories over 
the Dark Lord, I think people had reason to still hold him up as a hero, 
whether he was still an arrogant toerag or not. He could be a great hero 
and still have glaring faults- yes, both can co-exist in the same 
person. I think if you look at many modern athletes, you will find 
examples of that in real life.