Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion LONG

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 188870

 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, your hypothetical scenario  is one of the possibilities that could have occurred I suppose, but my scenario would be quite different. Where is canon evidence that Harry would have entertained a scenario, where he needs to die, or I should say where he needs to die not fighting without pushing from Dumbledore.

Pippin:
It was on the table from the moment Riddle confirmed that Lily's death was the countercurse. Dumbledore didn't give him that information. Harry figured it out for himself, under pressure from Riddle in the Chamber.  

"But I know why you couldn't *kill* me. Because my mother died to save me." 

We thought, silly us, that it was the magic of mother love. But it was the magic of willing sacrifice. IMO, Harry had that worked out a long time before we did.

Alla:
> In their little conversation in HBP does not Harry want to go in the pit with the head holding high? Does not Dumbledore support it? Fight Harry, not sacrifice yourself without fight, that was the message I at least got from it.

Pippin:
Um, I guess it depends on whether the context for the arena is gladiator versus gladiator.   or Christians vs lions. Gladiators got to fight for their lives but the Christians never had a chance. Nonetheless they went willingly and showed no fear.  That was the context as I read it, especially in light of DH.

Alla: 
> But choosing to force ALL of that on Harry in this particular time, um, no, sorry, to me it is manipulation of the first order, horrible and disgusting. And yes, I know, he did it for greater good. Ugh.
<snip>
> 
> And yes, I know, Harry decided that Dumbledore's plan to have him sacrificed was a good one. Sorry, but to me even when it seems like free choice, years of conditioning should be taken into consideration when evaluating how "free" his choice truly was.

Pippin:
Conditioning to do what? To obey Dumbledore? If Harry was conditioned to obey Dumbledore, or to sacrifice his life whenever Dumbledore said it was time, then Dumbledore could have just told him what to do, without all that stuff about the Hallows. Harry was conditioned to think that Dumbledore wanted what was best for him, yes. And that wasn't entirely true.
 
But there was nothing stopping Harry from deciding that he should knock Voldemort out of his body to destroy his powers, kill Nagini  and then  spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder until he, Harry, had died of natural causes. But that wasn't the kind of life Harry wanted. Who would?

Alla: 
> P.S. This whole post is one huge detour from original question though, I am yet to understand how Dumbledore asking Snape to give Harry memories which  will almost definitely lead to his death means that Snape was really doing for Lily, when he is indignant that he thought that they were protecting Lily's son **life** for her just a second ago. 
> 

Pippin:
Until some uncertain time in the future when Voldemort starts showing special care for his snake, the mission is still to keep Harry alive, and Snape has nothing to gain by not letting Dumbledore help him do it. 

Dumbledore did not arrange for Snape to give Harry his memories. It was Snape who chose to reveal that Dumbledore had used him, that he had manipulated the Order in the Twelve Potters scheme, and that it was Snape and not Dumbledore who had come up with the plan to get the sword to Harry in the proper way.  

Snape goes out of his way to show Harry that there's nothing sacred about Dumbledore's plans.

But...Snape cannot protect Harry from the soul bit. It's clearly a danger to Harry apart from whatever Voldemort himself might do. Snape obviously doesn't know of any other way that a soul bit could be destroyed.  Snape himself is dying. So how can he be sure he's done his utmost to fulfill his promise to protect Harry if he doesn't let know Harry what Dumbledore's plan was supposed to be?

Pippin