Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 188862


> > Alla:
> > 
> > Yes, I know, to me giving Harry that information pretty much implies convincing. I realize that opinions may differ on that one of course.
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> Let's do a thought experiment. Suppose that Harry got to the Shrieking Shack five minutes later, and Snape was  already dead. What would change?
> 
>  Voldemort would still call for Harry's surrender, and Harry would still be fed up with letting other people die for him. And he'd still realize that if he chose to die, he'd be able to cast a spell of protection over the other defenders, which would be their only hope, since he couldn't trust Voldemort to keep his word to spare them. 

Alla:

Well, your hypothetical scenario  is one of the possibilities that could have occurred I suppose, but my scenario would be quite different. Where is canon evidence that Harry would have entertained a scenario, where he needs to die, or I should say where he needs to die not fighting without pushing from Dumbledore.

I certainly agree that Harry would have wanted to be on the first lines of fighting, Dumbledore certainly trained him well for that and I also think that it was in him since the moment he was born to a degree, so I would not go as far as to say that it is all Dumbledore's doing, that Harry wants to fight.

In their little conversation in HBP does not Harry want to go in the pit with the head holding high? Does not Dumbledore support it? Fight Harry, not sacrifice yourself without fight, that was the message I at least got from it.


Pippin:
The only things Harry wouldn't know about his fate were that choosing to die was the *only* way that Voldemort could become mortal, and  that it was what Dumbledore had always intended him to do.  

Alla:

And as I said, to me it would be crucial, I do not see Harry choosing to die without fight. Die in fighting, sure, but that was not Dumbledore's plan.


Pippin:
> But since Harry would choose to meet his death anyway rather than let any more people die for him, it wouldn't have made a difference. 
> 
> Voldemort knows nothing of the memories or the soul bit, and he still expects Harry to march into the forest and get himself killed. 

Alla:

See above. I think Harry would have wanted to fight, but not die without ever raising his wand.


>> Pippin:
> 
> 
> When does Dumbledore even say that Harry has an obligation to face Voldemort? Never, IIRC. Harry derives it himself because his parents died to save him.   Does that mean it was wrong for Harry to be told how his parents died? 


Alla:

It is all of it - time, place and what was shown together which I consider completely, horribly wrong in a morally reprehensible way. If Dumbledore would have wanted to share his suppositions with Harry in OOP, HBP, CoS, PoA, any other book, I would have reacted much much differently. If Dumbledore while having that little chat with Harry in HBP about going into arena with head holding high explained to him about the suspicions he had what may reside in Harry's head, well, I would have felt bad for Harry, but at least I would have thought that Dumbledore may have had some altruistic motives in doing it. Like, oh, I know, sharing the information with Harry and hoping that it may have helped him survive. Like maybe telling Harry, hey you know you have that amazing know it all friend Hermione, who can research everything and anything, I think we may need her help. See Harry I am a bit worried and want to increase your survival possibilities, but I am not sure how, so maybe it is time for you to take research in your own hands.

And if in OOP, when Dumbledore was telling Harry **everything** he decided to show him how his parents died and who was Judas who sold them for thirty silver coins, I would have cheered Dumbledore on, because I would have thought, oh maybe, just maybe, Dumbledore would have decided that Harry, gasps, has a right to know his past and no matter how hard it will be for Dumbledore to handle the fallout, that would be choosing right over easy.

But choosing to force ALL of that on Harry in this particular time, um, no, sorry, to me it is manipulation of the first order, horrible and disgusting. And yes, I know, he did it for greater good. Ugh.

And do you even have to ask the question about when did Dumbledore say that Harry has an obligation to face Voldemort? I think he was saying it multiple times since the first book. I know, Harry wanted to do it too, since he killed his parents. I wonder if Harry still felt same way if he saw all those memories much earlier.

And yes, I know, Harry decided that Dumbledore's plan to have him sacrificed was a good one. Sorry, but to me even when it seems like free choice, years of conditioning should be taken into consideration when evaluating how "free" his choice truly was.

P.S. This whole post is one huge detour from original question though, I am yet to understand how Dumbledore asking Snape to give Harry memories which  will almost definitely lead to his death means that Snape was really doing for Lily, when he is indignant that he thought that they were protecting Lily's son **life** for her just a second ago. 

P.S. Sorry for multiple exclamation thingies in the post, you know that this is directed at Dumbledore, not at you, right? :-)

JMO,

Alla