Snape and Harry and expulsion LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 188885


Montavilla47:

Just so that you understand what I mean by the
Harry Filter, I'll explain:

As Harry recognizes Snape approaching, he feels "a
rush of pure loathing." This is not Harry Filter. This is
simply describing what Harry is feeling, but it clues me (YMMV)
into the presence of a filter coming up.

And immediately we have the filter describing Snape with
"hooked nose" and "long, black, greasy hair." This negative
type of description is not used Chapter Two, when Snape
is viewed more objectively as merely having a "long, black
curtain of hair." <SNIP>


Alla:

I am having problems at where to snip your post, so rather than leave in everything I am going to snip rather arbitrarily and cut almost everything in your excellent analysis a lot of which I agree with and find not very relevant to the situation we are discussing. Everybody can read it upthread after all. Again, I am not ignoring your points, I just do not feel that my reply warrants leaving them all in.

So anyway, I do not see how the adding of "greasy" makes the description a filter, I do not see what is incorrect in this description, but now moving on to Harry being angry with Snape about Sirius. Yes, sure OF COURSE Harry is angry with Snape about Sirius. Harry is always angry with Snape about something, or almost always angry.  Sirius' death is a huge reason to feel angry and of course Harry is avoiding facing his own guilt here, sure. Yes, of course his anger builds up and builds up over the years. We differ greatly at how deserved this anger is, but of course I am not going to deny that the anger is there.

However, I argue that Snape's very specific action greatly increased Harry's anger, that situation will be Snape making him go through the Great Hall as he was. I argue that Snape making that decision was abuse of his authority and done out of pure spite and desire to humiliate Harry. What does this have to do with Harry being angry at Snape about Sirius? I mean, I can make a case that Harry being angry with Snape after first lesson had a great relevance on how Occlumency lessons played out, I can make a case that Harry being angry with Snape after he talked about James in PoA was one of the build up of Harry's anger which lead to his anger in HBP. However, I do not see how this precludes me from discussing those accidents on their own. The bottom line, to me if say Snape did no do anything ELSE to Harry, him making Harry walk through the Hall was bad on its own.

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
Harry remains silent, seethes, and "knows" that
Snape came to fetch Harry just so that he could
have a few minutes to "needle and torment Harry
without anyone else listening."

Oh, so many things wrong with that! 
First off, we
*know* that Snape came because Hagrid (Tonks's first
choice) was absent.

Alla:

Not to me, not too many things are wrong with it, I do not see filter at work here either. Snape wanting to torment and needle Harry to me does not preclude him also coming because Hagrid was not available and did he really come just because of that or because he wanted to? After all why not ask somebody else? He intercepted message did he not? Message which was not related to him, how about giving to the recipient?

Montavilla47:
Secondly, we *know* that Snape
had made a solemn, lifelong promise to protect
Lily's child, and so he would feel obliged to make
sure that the missing child was found and escorted
to the castle (and we know he hates Harry so he's
going to resent having to make this extra effort--but
he's going to do it anyway, dammit!) 

Alla:

Sure, Harry does not know that part, he still can be right about part that he does know, he reports objectively what he knows in my opinion.

Montavilla47:
And, thirdly, I'm
pretty sure that Snape would rather "needle and
torment" Harry in public than do it privately.

Alla:

I cannot share your certainty I am afraid. He torments him in public sure, but I do not remember audience being present when he talked to Harry about James, personally I think he would happily torment him anywhere.


Montavilla47:
Now, do I think that Harry shouldn't have felt that way.
No. I think he's fine to feel what he feels. I'm just not
going along on his particular emo ride.

Just like, although I may feel really bad for a four-year-
old who gets dragged away to the car in front of a crowd
full of strangers (or friends) by his parents. I know he's
hurting. I know he's angry. But it doesn't mean I'm going
to agree with him when he screams that his parents are the
"meanest people ever!"


Alla:

Aha, I think I understand. You think Snape had a right to do what he did and Harry needed and deserved to get what he got, just as pouty four year old did? If so, I have no response, really. I am just getting another confirmation that where Harry and Snape are concerned we are reading different books.

Montavilla47:
I will agree that Harry is humiliated. But sorry, I
really can't take Harry's feelings seriously. Because all
this humiliation is due to Harry's own actions.


Alla:

And now we come to what to me is indeed quite relevant. Would you mind elaborating on what Harry's actions his humiliation is due? Are you saying that Harry did something **worthy of punishment** that Snape has a right to impose a punishment on him here?

Snape knows nothing of what occurred on the train (unless he read Harry's mind of course), all that he sees is that Harry is late and hurt  and you think  this is punishment worthy? If you do not want to respond to anything else in my post, could you please at least respond to this question? I just want clarification before I will probably bow out of this debate.


Montavilla47:
Well, Harry had already been healed of that
particular injury, which Snape would probably know
from Tonks's patronus. Or might surmise given that
a) Tonks is a competent auror who would be unlikely
to hand over an injured Chosen One without mentioning
it and b) he's a competent healer himself and can
tell the difference between an untreated injury and a
treated one.

Alla:

Yes he might have, or he might not know anything of this and see Harry with blood on his face and decide not to do anything about it. It is not like he has not done that in the past (not sending injured student to the nurse – Hermione's accident)

JMO,

Alla