Snape and Harry and expulsion LONG

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 188881



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> Montavilla47:
> I guess this is what I was thinking about:
> 
> "Not now, Hermione," said Harry, in a darkly
> significant voice. He hoped very much that they
> would all assume he had been involved in something
> heroic, perferably involving a couple of Death Eaters
> and a dementor."
> 
> HPB, p. 163, U.S. Ed.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> That's not Harry **wanting** to make an entrance, that's Harry hoping that they
> would interpret his **forced** entrance after the fact as something more heroic
> than something humiliating I thought.

Montavilla47:
Right.  I agree with your interpretation.  It was my 
mistake in my original reading of the passage that
Harry was trying to endow the whole entrance with
an air of mystery.

I mean, he is.  But your right in that it's an attempt
to deflect from the humiliation not just teenage 
posturing.  

But it's still really both and I'm reluctant to give up 
that posturing impulse on Harry's part because I 
find it endearing.  While I may be hard on Harry,
I do want to like him--and it's when he acts like 
a dorky teen that I like him best.



> Montavilla47:
> I read over that passage again and it's cracking me
> up how just the sight of Snape--before Snape even
> says a word--fills Harry to the bursting point with
> hatred and loathing.
> 
> Also, the heavy Harry filter in that scene makes it
> impossible for me to take any of it seriously. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> Frankly, I find the expression "Harry filter" to have no relevance to this scene
> whatsoever. Narrator, who is in Harry's head tells us how Harry feels. Just as
> in the first lesson narrator does not describe anything that actually did not
> happen or did not describe any feelings that are fake and tells us later on that
> Harry did not feel it. I do not see anything "filtrated" here.

Montavilla47:

Just so that you understand what I mean by the 
Harry Filter, I'll explain:

As Harry recognizes Snape approaching, he feels "a 
rush of pure loathing."  This is not Harry Filter.  This is 
simply describing what Harry is feeling, but it clues me (YMMV)
into the presence of a filter coming up.

And immediately we have the filter describing Snape with
"hooked nose" and "long, black, greasy hair."  This negative
type of description is not used Chapter Two, when Snape 
is viewed more objectively as merely having a "long, black
curtain of hair."

In Snape's first words "Well, well, well," he is described as 
"sneering."  A few lines later the "malice in his voice" is 
"unmistakable."

They walk in silence for a few minutes and Harry finds it
incredible that Snape can't "feel" the waves of burning hatred
coming off his (Harry's) body.  Harry then recounts all the 
reasons he hates Snape--which boil down to Harry's 
conviction that Snape's snide remarks to Sirius had led
Sirius to rush off to rescue Harry at the MoM and so led 
to Sirius's death.

And, hilariously, Harry practically admits that he's "clinging
to the idea" because it's personally satisfying.  (What isn't
admitted is that it deflect away any blame Harry might feel
for needing to be rescued in the first place.)  Also, Harry
is "sure" that Snape isn't at all sorry that Sirius is dead.

(That certainty should be re-examined in light of the 
Prince's Tale where Dumbledore asks how many people
Snape has watched die, and Snape's reply, "Only those 
I could not save."  Am I paraphrasing that line?  That's 
the gist of it, anyway.)

Now, we have Snape make a couple snide remarks:
"You know, I don't believe any House has ever been in
negative figures this early in the term:  We haven't 
even started pudding.  You might have set a record,
Potter."

To which Harry says nothing, because to say something
would be to LET SNAPE WIN!  Sorry, the exact quote is:
"The fury and hatred bubbling inside Harry seemed to 
blaze white-hot, but he would rather have been 
immobilized all the way back to London than tell 
Snape why he was late."

So, Harry is feeling angry and probably humiliated, but
this is because he's carrying around this reservoir of bile
from a misconception that Snape is responsible for Sirius's
death (which is simply not the case), and interpreting 
Snape's words through that filter.  I am not forgetting
that Snape is has taken away 70 House points from 
Harry.  But if you look at the lines without any 
preconception, Snape has not yet begun to torment
Harry--although Harry is interpreting it that way.

Imagine if it had been Hagrid or Dumbledore saying
those exact words.  They would be taken quite 
differently, don't you think?  

Moving on, as Harry doesn't speak, Snape goes on
to speculate on Harry's motives for arriving in such
a dramatic fashion.  Of course, Snape is wrong about
Harry's motives.  But then I've never argued that 
Snape doesn't have his own filter. :)

"I suppose you wanted to make an entrance, did you?
And with no flying car available you decided that
bursting into the Great Hall halfway through the feast
ought to create a dramatic effect."

Harry remains silent, seethes, and "knows" that 
Snape came to fetch Harry just so that he could 
have a few minutes to "needle and torment Harry
without anyone else listening."

Oh, so many things wrong with that!  First off, we
*know* that Snape came because Hagrid (Tonks's first
choice) was absent.  Secondly, we *know* that Snape
had made a solemn, lifelong promise to protect 
Lily's child, and so he would feel obliged to make 
sure that the missing child was found and escorted
to the castle (and we know he hates Harry so he's 
going to resent  having to make this extra effort--but
he's going to do it anyway, dammit!)  And, thirdly, I'm 
pretty sure that Snape would rather "needle and 
torment" Harry in public than do it privately.  

So, Harry remains sullen and silent, giving off
waves of hatred and not explaining in the least
why it was that he didn't arrive with the other
students all the way to the castle, up the 
stairs, through the doors and into the entrance
hall.  

It's at this point that Snape tells Harry that he 
can walk into the Hall like a normal person (instead
of the Chosen One with an invisibility cloak over
his head).  

So, what am I seeing with my adult reader 
filter on?  I'm seeing a teacher dealing with a 
sulky teenager and saying in effect, "You want
to play the emo-angsty victim?  Go ahead and
play it for your peers!  See how much sympathy
you get!"

Once I move away from Harry's narrow perspective
that is.  Or to put it in other words, once I remove
the Harry filter.

Alla:
> What I do get from your argument is that you do not seem to think that Harry
> should have felt that way. That's not Harry's filter in my view, that's your
> filter as a reader. I do not mean it in a bad way, we all have those filters I
> think, but as I said I just disagree that Harry's filter is at works here.

Montavilla47:
Now, do I think that Harry shouldn't have felt that way.
No.  I think he's fine to feel what he feels.  I'm just not 
going along on his particular emo ride.

Just like, although I may feel really bad for a four-year-
old who gets dragged away to the car in front of a crowd
full of strangers (or friends)  by his parents.  I know he's 
hurting.  I know he's angry.  But it doesn't mean I'm going 
to agree with him when he screams that his parents are the 
"meanest people ever!"

Alla:
> As far as I am concerned I disagreed with your earlier point that Snape did not
> manage to humiliate Harry here and I proved it with canon. Unless you can show
> me the canon that says that no he was not, the argument that "you cannot take
> Harry's feelings seriously" just does not work for me as a rebuttal.

Montavilla47:
I will agree that Harry is humiliated.  But sorry, I 
really can't take Harry's feelings seriously.  Because all
this humiliation is due to Harry's own actions.  

Now, if you want me to take Harry's feelings 
seriously because it's obvious that this is all
repressed anger and shame associated with the 
incidents that took placed in OotP--and that 
Harry is pretending to be all over (as he 
assures Dumbledore in the broomstick shed),
then I'm willing to talk to about it.  Because 
Harry is doing some *major* repressing and
avoidance in this book.

But since that repression and avoidance never
pay off in the series, it's somewhat useless
to talk about.

> Alla:
> 
> Yes, I know. It is all Harry's fault. Oh by the way, I just realized something,
> although I am sure it was mentioned in the past, Snape sees teenager with the
> blood on his face and not ever tells him to go to the nurse. I guess not
> treating his possible injuries also included in "consequences of his own lack of
> judgment"? Not that I agree that Snape had any right to do what he did of
> course, just wondering what it takes in your opinion.

Montavilla47:
Well, Harry had already been healed of that
particular injury, which Snape would probably know
from Tonks's patronus.  Or might surmise given that
a) Tonks is a competent auror who would be unlikely
to hand over an injured Chosen One without mentioning
it and b) he's a competent healer himself and can 
tell the difference between an untreated injury and a 
treated one.