Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion LONG

[nikkalmati]

No: HPFGUIDX 188947



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lealess" <lealess at ...> wrote:
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> lealess
 
> I agree that the plan changed over the years as more information became available to Dumbledore, but based on the Prophecy, which stated "either must die at the hand of the other," I think Dumbledore always believed that Potter would have to kill Voldemort.  He was training him up and laying challenges in his path to prepare him for this task.
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Nikkalmati

DD made it clear when he talked to Harry in HBP that he did not believe in prophecies and that Harry was free to choose to ignore it.  The Prophecy was useful to explain why DD did not go after LV himself, rather than explain to anyone about LV's Horcruxes.  In fact, he did not train Harry to kill LV, and Harry himself wonders why DD was not teaching him any spells or duelling techniques.

Nikkalmati

>lealess

> I think it was the destruction of Diary Tom in COS that clued Dumbledore onto Horcruxes and the possibility of Potter being one in need of destruction.

Nikkalmati
 
We see in PS in the first scene that DD thought Harry's scar was significant.  He began collecting memories about LV a long time back before Morfin died, for example.  

Nikkalmati

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>lealess
 
> I'm with you on the blood protection enabling Potter to survive, and Dumbledore knowing that and taking some comfort from it.  I still think he expected Potter to have to kill Voldemort because of the Prophecy.  Dumbledore could protect and train Potter, excluding most of OOTP, and there, he could duel with Voldemort (but not kill him, even with the Elder Wand) and cry to Potter about Potter's role.  If I remember, he didn't contradict Potter's perception that Potter was chosen to kill Voldemort.
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Nkkalmati

DD needed to keep Harry in the dark, so the Prophecy was a useful tool in that regard too.  

Nikkalmati

>lealess
 
> I think Dumbledore was somewhat deluded in HBP about how long he would be able to stick around to train Potter.  When it came down to actually dying on the Tower, he asked for Severus. At this point, he was not trying to be saved, but was rather going to ask Snape to put him out of his misery/block the potion's end result, and ostensibly transfer the wand to Snape.  That would have been a fake transfer, since Dumbledore intended the Elder Wand's power to die with him, a death Dumbledore both wanted and commanded.  I don't think Dumbledore intended reluctant-killer Snape to murder Voldemort.  I think Dumbledore still felt that job fell to Harry as The Chosen One, along with everything else.

Nikkalmati

I think DD had a good idea how long he had.  SS had told him he might have a year.  Yes, DD intended for the Wand's power to die with him.  Exactly how that would work is not clear. I still do not believe DD ever put any faith in the Prophecy.  His goal was for LV to kill Harry, who would go to his death willingly without fighting.

Nikkalmati  
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> Dumbledore's stated reason for setting Potter after the Hallows still makes no sense to me, but I think he suspected Potter would somehow end up with the Elder Wand, otherwise why put him in mind of it?  Snape actually having the Elder Wand and using it against Voldemort relied on the gamble that Snape could stay alive after Potter's non-death, even though Dumbledore himself painted the irresistible target of the wand on Snape.  But I don't think Dumbledore told Snape about the wand, or that Snape figured it out, though I admit we will probably never know. 
>snip< 

Nikkalmati

Does that mean you think DD set SS up to be killed without telling him?  Not nice.  If LV killed SS to get the wand, Harry was never going to get it. DD willed Harry the stone (in the Snitch) to help him through his ordeal by giving him the vision of his parents, Lupin and Sirius.  Harry found out about the Wand by seeing LV's search for it, and decided in Shell Cottage that DD did not want him to have it. 

Nikkalmati

lealess

> In any event, I still see Dumbledore sitting smugly somewhere waiting for Potter to appear so he could explain how cunning his plan was in its details, knowing that Potter would return to finish Voldemort, as Dumbledore always expected him to do.
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Nikkalmati

I still think DD would not want Harry to kill LV and I do not know how Harry could be powerful enough to do it without the Elder Wand.

Pippin thinks if Harry went to his death willingly, that would extend Lily's protection to everyone fighting against LV.  I have to think about that.  In that case, it would not matter if Harry returned from near-death/death, because anyone there could kill LV.

Nikkalmati
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