Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion LONG

[lealess]

No: HPFGUIDX 188955



-- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
>
> DD made it clear when he talked to Harry in HBP that he did not believe in prophecies and that Harry was free to choose to ignore it. The Prophecy was useful to explain why DD did not go after LV himself, rather than explain to anyone about LV's Horcruxes. In fact, he did not train Harry to kill LV, and Harry himself wonders why DD was not teaching him any spells or duelling techniques.

Dumbledore put faith in the Prophecy to the extent that he knew Voldemort believed in the Prophecy and had chosen Potter as the one indicated in it (as Pippin pointed out).  When Voldemort made that choice, then the board was set and Dumbledore had to play with the pieces he got.

As for Dumbledore's training of Potter, it wasn't in fighting, but rather in staying on task and following orders to the letter, no matter how much Potter felt he was incapable (Slughorn) or how much he didn't want to (potion in the cave).  It was also supposedly to enhance Potter's understanding of Voldemort's psychology.

> We see in PS in the first scene that DD thought Harry's scar was significant. He began collecting memories about LV a long time back before Morfin died, for example.

Of course the scar was significant, as it potentially held the riddle to Potter surviving the Killing Curse.  Significant does mean Horcrux, however.  Diary! Tom Riddle gets closer to Horcrux.

When faced with a powerful enemy who may be immortal, it's probably best to gather intelligence on that enemy as soon as possible.

> DD needed to keep Harry in the dark, so the Prophecy was a useful tool in that regard too.

I'm just wondering... why keep Potter in the dark?

> I think DD had a good idea how long he had. SS had told him he might have a year. Yes, DD intended for the Wand's power to die with him. Exactly how that would work is not clear. I still do not believe DD ever put any faith in the Prophecy. His goal was for LV to kill Harry, who would go to his death willingly without fighting.

He lived less than a year, by my calculations, so he may have felt he had some time to have a sit down with Potter and tell him more of what he needed to know.  Malfoy messed up those plans.

The wand's power would die because the transfer would not occur as the result of a battle of wills over the wand, but rather as an intended suicide by proxy.  Dumbledore would not have been defeated, except by himself.  He would have willed his own death, and thus retained mastery of the wand.  That mastery would have died with him.

If it appeared that Snape killed him, then Snape would have been a sitting duck for a Voldemort determined to find a wand to head off the wand trouble he was having with Potter.  Having observed Snape through six books, I think Snape would have taken steps to address that situation, had he known about it, to place himself out of danger so he could fulfill his mission to tell Potter of the embedded soul piece.

As for the Prophecy, see above.  No matter what Dumbledore said, he put his faith wholly in Prophecy Boy Potter to carry out his plans, making no contingency plans.  He also put people in danger to protect the secrets of the Prophecy and cried over Harry's prescribed role at the end of OOTP.  Were these the actions of a rational leader who discounted prophecy?

If he was stressing choice in HBP, he may have been allowing Potter to believe he had a choice, at the same time he demanded absolute obedience from Potter.

> Does that mean you think DD set SS up to be killed without telling him? Not nice. If LV killed SS to get the wand, Harry was never going to get it. DD willed Harry the stone (in the Snitch) to help him through his ordeal by giving him the vision of his parents, Lupin and Sirius. Harry found out about the Wand by seeing LV's search for it, and decided in Shell Cottage that DD did not want him to have it.

Yes, I can only conclude that DD set SS up to be killed, either through negligence or intent.  I wonder why we don't have a scene with DD telling Snape about the wand, when he knew that Voldemort would go after it.  This omission makes no sense except as a way to get rid of someone who, even after the entire story, Dumbledore really did not trust, no matter what he said, let alone like.

Even if Potter decided in Shell Cottage that DD did not want him to have the wand, that doesn't really tell us what DD wanted -- only what Potter decided.  Dumbledore blathers on about the Master of Death thing, how Potter's the only one good enough to hold all three Hallows, in the King's Cross chapter.  I think he expected Potter to get the wand.

However, I'll admit that I don't have enough information to prove this or that Dumbledore set up Snape's death.

> I still think DD would not want Harry to kill LV and I do not know how Harry could be powerful enough to do it without the Elder Wand.

Dumbledore in King's Cross intimated that Potter would be able to finish Voldemort for good, even with Voldemort in possession of the Elder Wand, so I think that's what he might have wanted.  I agree that, with Nagini out of the way, anyone could kill Voldemort, if that person knew about Horcruxes and that Nagini was the last one.  Potter alone had that information, and he took on the responsibility of ending Voldemort.

lealess