Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion LONG

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 188976

 
> Alla:
> 
> But if you are consistently putting this spaniel (or human in our situation) in
> the situations which require certain modes of behavior I think you can train him
> pretty darn well.


Pippin:

Maybe we are not using "conditioning" in the same way. Conditioning is not about what is required. Conditioning is about what is reinforced -- positively with pleasurable things or negatively with aversive ones.

 "Behavioral conditioning" to use its full name, is a method of influencing behavior through  consistent and systematic reinforcement. I don't see that going on -- not as far as influencing Harry to become Dumbledore's man. Sometimes Harry gets rewarded for following Dumbledore's orders and sometimes he doesn't. 

Certainly Dumbledore is attempting to influence Harry in all sorts of ways. But when Harry sees Dumbledore at the second Quidditch match in PS/SS and immediately feels that everything is going to be all right, it's not because he's been conditioned to think so. He hasn't been rewarded for having those thoughts before. 

Harry's been *socialized* to think that Dumbledore is a great man -- he's spent most of his Hogwarts time around people who think so. But again, that's not conditioning. They didn't systematically reward him for agreeing with them. And they themselves haven't been conditioned -- no one is giving them brownie points for saying how great Dumbledore is.

 They believe it because Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald, and because he was warning and organizing the WW against Voldemort back when many people thought LV was a great wizard. They trust DD's judgement, perhaps more than they should, but that's not conditioning either. That's laziness.

Harry wasn't conditioned to offer his life without a fight. No one ever gave him a reward for that.  And when you say that yes, Harry was aware that he was making that decision, that to me completely undermines the argument that he was conditioned, because conditioning is about reflexes. It's about decision-making at an unconscious level. If you're aware of making a choice, then, IMO, conditioning has failed. Or never existed.

Alla: 
> As I said, because I like the character of Harry so much, I would MUCH prefer
> that the choice would have been completely his own, but I just cannot buy so
> anymore, and we  never hear Harry assert that he is his own man, only that he is
> Dumbledore's man. I only hope that in the years between the fight with Voldemort
> and epilogue he learned how to be his own man.

Pippin:
I don't know what "Dumbledore's man" means to you. To me, it means accepting Dumbledore's leadership in the war against Voldemort, which Harry does on the basis of Dumbledore's greater knowledge and experience, as well as on his personal feelings for him.  

 It doesn't say anything about Harry not having confidence in his own judgement. In fact, I would say a lot of Dumbledore's training was aimed at persuading Harry that he could have confidence in his own judgement. 

Pippin