Dumbledore as Harry's shameless manipulator redux WAS Doing it for Lily?

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 188978

Pippin:

Maybe we are not using "conditioning" in the same way. Conditioning is not about
what is required. Conditioning is about what is reinforced -- positively with
pleasurable things or negatively with aversive ones.

"Behavioral conditioning" to use its full name, is a method of influencing
behavior through consistent and systematic reinforcement. I don't see that
going on -- not as far as influencing Harry to become Dumbledore's man.
Sometimes Harry gets rewarded for following Dumbledore's orders and sometimes he
doesn't.

Alla:
Oh then sure, you are right, I was using conditioning as a synonym to "training". I would agree that Dumbledore did not consistently and systematically rewarded Harry for showing the behavior Dumbledore wanted Harry to show.

In fact I would say that quite often Dumbledore made sure Harry suffered in order to train him. So yes, I will change "conditioned behavior" to "trained behavior" in my argument then. Or maybe I should not? Since I believe that Dumbledore provided plenty of negative reinforcements together with positive. Not sure, all I can say that I agree that Harry was not always rewarded, that's for sure.

Pippin:
Certainly Dumbledore is attempting to influence Harry in all sorts of ways.

Alla:

Yep, that is the gist of my argument, lol, so as far as I am concerned we agree about that.

Pippin:
But
when Harry sees Dumbledore at the second Quidditch match in PS/SS and
immediately feels that everything is going to be all right, it's not because
he's been conditioned to think so. He hasn't been rewarded for having those
thoughts before.

Alla:

But that is not crucial to me though, what is crucial to me is that I believe that Dumbledore way before Harry even came to school set him up to love WW by putting him in such horrible home and setting up a contrast between Dursleys and WW. Never mind that when Harry grows up he sees that there are plenty of horrors happening in WW, he is already in love with it. What is crucial to me is that I believe that Dumbledore set up the book 1 and did not even come right away when three eleven year olds could have died, well, Harry could have died, but what if all three of them went through.

Sure, Dumbledore does not always give Harry a cookie for thinking he is great, he makes sure that Harry thinks his actions are great. Dumbledore came to save Harry? Yay, he is so great, never mind that obstacles course was his idea anyway (IMO). Dumbledore helped Harry to fight Tommy in CoS? He is so amazing and as Lealess said Dumbledore does not forget to inform Harry that Fawkes came because Harry is loyal to Dumbledore. Oh dear, maybe Fawkes would have come to the help of pure hearted no matter if they are not personally loyal to Dumbledore?

Dumbledore helped Harry to save Sirius? YAY again, he is so great, never mind that he did nothing to help Sirius thirteen years ago and only now woke up. You get the gist.

Here comes OOP, thank goodness here Harry does not think Dumbledore is great anymore, what Dumbledore does though? In my opinion he makes sure to diminish Harry's pain, badmouths his dead godfather and supposedly tells Harry *everything*, only wait, he does not.

In fact he pretty much lies to Harry. Does it fall under definition of conditioning? I guess not from what you are describing, but as far as I am concerned it was pretty vicious training. How dare you are throwing temper tantrums at me if you are supposed to think of bigger picture?

And then we have HBP, and I am not sure how else it could be described but conditioning.



Pippin:
I don't know what "Dumbledore's man" means to you. To me, it means accepting
Dumbledore's leadership in the war against Voldemort, which Harry does on the
basis of Dumbledore's greater knowledge and experience, as well as on his
personal feelings for him.

Alla:
To me it is a shortcut that Harry is Dumbledore's faithful follower, I do not see how you can limit it, if Harry does not.

Pippin:
It doesn't say anything about Harry not having confidence in his own judgment.
In fact, I would say a lot of Dumbledore's training was aimed at persuading
Harry that he could have confidence in his own judgment.

Alla:

I am sure Harry has confidence in his own judgment to follow Dumbledore,  but can Harry make decisions that Dumbledore would NOT have wanted him to make?

I seriously doubt that, or at least I doubt it at the end of the book. Heck, even in Kings Cross Dumbledore would not let Harry be at peace, would he not? I know that there is an interpretation of Kings Cross that it only happens in Harry's head, but I think the interpretation that their souls are indeed meeting in some sort of Potterverse in between is valid too.

So, Harry IS tempted to go on, is he not? And what does Dumbledore say? Ooooo, you will save more souls, blah, blah.  I am convinced that this is again subtle influence of what Harry who is suffered so much supposed to do.

And just to contrast this episode, I will bring up the similar happening in "Herald Mage" trilogy by Mercedes Lackey. When close to the end of the third book Vanuel has the similar experience that he can rest or he can go back and finish evil mage, knowing that it will bring him more suffering and that it will not end happily for him, he goes back to finish evil mage anyway. Only there is no doubt there for me that Vanuel chooses on his own and nobody is whispering in his ear and validating his saving people thing as Dumbledore does here with Harry IMO.