Dumbledore as shameless manipulator redux WAS: Doing it for Lily?

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 188980


> Alla:
> 
> But that is not crucial to me though, what is crucial to me is that I believe that Dumbledore way before Harry even came to school set him up to love WW by putting him in such horrible home and setting up a contrast between Dursleys and WW. Never mind that when Harry grows up he sees that there are plenty of horrors happening in WW, he is already in love with it. 

Pippin:
Isn't it more likely that Harry would be  prone to anger and depression, and liable  to act out in unpredictable ways? In fact, isn't this what Harry *is* like? It's hardly the way to raise a reliable follower, IMO. 

Alla:
What is crucial to me is that I believe that Dumbledore set up the book 1 and did not even come right away when three eleven year olds could have died, well, Harry could have died, but what if all three of them went through.

Pippin:
Yes, that is one thing that I have never understood about this theory. If Dumbledore's supposed to have set it up, wouldn't he have had some way to tell when Harry was going to need rescuing? Take something he *did* plan -- moving Harry out of Privet Drive in OOP, for example, or giving evidence at Harry's trial,  and it's clear that timing is not  left to chance.

Alla:
  Oh dear, maybe Fawkes would have come to the help of pure hearted no matter if they are not personally loyal to Dumbledore?

Pippin:
::snort:: That's a new one. But you'll have to explain why Fawkes aided the not so pure Dumbledore in OOP, and why he didn't stick around to help pure-hearted  Harry after Dumbledore died. 

Alla:
> Dumbledore helped Harry to save Sirius? YAY again, he is so great, never mind that he did nothing to help Sirius thirteen years ago and only now woke up. You get the gist.

Pippin:
So, let me see, you  hate Dumbledore so much for betraying Harry that you will not believe that any of his explanations  are sincere, you believe he has done horrible things that aren't even mentioned in canon, and yet you can't understand how Dumbledore could feel so betrayed by Sirius that he wouldn't even think of helping him?
 
> Pippin:
> I don't know what "Dumbledore's man" means to you. To me, it means accepting
> Dumbledore's leadership in the war against Voldemort, which Harry does on the
> basis of Dumbledore's greater knowledge and experience, as well as on his
> personal feelings for him.
> 
> Alla:
> To me it is a shortcut that Harry is Dumbledore's faithful follower, I do not see how you can limit it, if Harry does not.

Pippin:
I limit it because Harry does. When does Harry seek Dumbledore's advice or follow his orders on anything but the war against Voldemort? When he has personal problems that he doesn't trust to Ron or Hermione, he takes them to Sirius.

> Alla:
> 
> So, Harry IS tempted to go on, is he not? And what does Dumbledore say? Ooooo, you will save more souls, blah, blah.  I am convinced that this is again subtle influence of what Harry who is suffered so much supposed to do.
> 

Pippin:
Are you saying that Harry wouldn't think it was a worthy goal to save souls if Dumbledore hadn't told him it was? That even though in King's Cross it is Dumbledore who is desperate for Harry's approval, Harry is somehow Dumbledore's slave and incapable of having an independent thought? 


Pippin