Dumbledore as shameless manipulator redux LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 188981






Pippin:
Isn't it more likely that Harry would be prone to anger and depression, and
liable to act out in unpredictable ways? In fact, isn't this what Harry *is*
like? It's hardly the way to raise a reliable follower, IMO.

Alla:

LOLOL. Yep, he certainly should be after the ten years he spent with Dursleys, however how many times exactly Harry acts out in the ways unpredictable to **Dumbledore**? Except his temper tantrum in OOP that is, seemed to me Dumbledore was able to predict Harry's acting  quite nicely.

In fact it seems to me it could be argued that limiting Harry's communication with his friends and Sirius and Remus after Triwizard tournament he made sure Harry's depression was fully blooming by the time OOP started. Yeah, I think it is another one of canon mentioned terrible things that Dumbledore did to Harry. Teenager, who witnessed the death of the classmate needs support of the loved ones, period. Apparently Dumbledore did not think so. 



Pippin: 
Yes, that is one thing that I have never understood about this theory. If
Dumbledore's supposed to have set it up, wouldn't he have had some way to tell
when Harry was going to need rescuing? Take something he *did* plan -- moving
Harry out of Privet Drive in OOP, for example, or giving evidence at Harry's
trial, and it's clear that timing is not left to chance.

Alla:

Um, he did save Harry just on time, didn't he? Birdie told him to be back surprisingly on time, at the very last minute, but on time nevertheless. And Harry is a bit hurt? Well, now he knows what Voldemort is capable of.

Alla:
Oh dear, maybe Fawkes would have come to the help of pure hearted no matter if
they are not personally loyal to Dumbledore?

Pippin:
::snort:: That's a new one. But you'll have to explain why Fawkes aided the not
so pure Dumbledore in OOP, and why he didn't stick around to help pure-hearted 
Harry after Dumbledore died.


Alla:

This was mostly speculation of course, however I cannot find Fantastic Beasts on my shelf, but don't they talk about phoenixes as aiding pure – hearted? Regardless whether they do or do not, my point was that Dumbledore did not have to mention it, even if it is true IMO. He says that help would always be given in Hogwarts to those who ask for it, why not leave it at that, why stress personal loyalty?



Pippin:
So, let me see, you hate Dumbledore so much for betraying Harry that you will
not believe that any of his explanations are sincere, you believe he has done
horrible things that aren't even mentioned in canon, and yet you can't
understand how Dumbledore could feel so betrayed by Sirius that he wouldn't even
think of helping him?


Alla:
I am not sure what horrible things that are not mentioned in canon I mentioned so far. I surely have a very different interpretation than you of many things **mentioned** in canon definitely. Fawkes? And absolutely I totally understand how Dumbledore may have felt betrayed by Sirius actually, however this in my mind totally does not excuse what he did and moreover him saving Sirius does not deserve to be qualified as something great, just something which was due and owed long time ago. What I think he should have done if you ask me is to go all the way – give evidence to the Ministry, make sure he explained that he Legilimenced Sirius and all that. No, I do not think Ministry would have put up that much of a fight, it felt to me that they agreed with Sirius' innocence really really fast after he was dead.

So my main point is that this is one in the long list of actions that Dumbledore presents to Harry as something Harry needs to respect him for.



Pippin:
I limit it because Harry does. When does Harry seek Dumbledore's advice or
follow his orders on anything but the war against Voldemort? When he has
personal problems that he doesn't trust to Ron or Hermione, he takes them to
Sirius.

Alla:

Eh, but war against Voldemort consumes Harry as a whole, personal problems are so insignificant for him.  And what personal problems does he take to Sirius? That his scar hurt after Hermione insists Harry writes to him? But that is connected to Voldemort as well. How Triwizard tournament was progressing? Same thing to me. I would never dispute that Harry loved Sirius dearly, but he never called himself Sirius' man lol. And believe me I would have never wanted him to do so. I think Harry and Sirius had a chance to have something really really good there, but I do not think this was in Dumbledore's plans for Harry.


Pippin:
Are you saying that Harry wouldn't think it was a worthy goal to save souls if
Dumbledore hadn't told him it was? That even though in King's Cross it is
Dumbledore who is desperate for Harry's approval, Harry is somehow Dumbledore's
slave and incapable of having an independent thought?

Alla:
I think you are mixing up issues here. Saving souls is a very worthy thing as far as I am concerned; free will as far as I am concerned is also a very worthy thing. And I cannot respect a leader who takes the free will away from his subjects, no matter how worthy such goal is. You mentioned the obligation to fight tyranny as the highest obligation as the books promote in one of your recent posts, right?  Well, see I think that people have a freedom to choose whether to do that or not. And yes, if this freedom to choose means that other people decide to stand against them, they chose to do so. People may want to follow tyrants for all different reasons. As Erlein from Tigana says they may do so because roads are safer while tyrants rule them than when good rulers did (paraphrasing).  Goodness knows I do not condone it, but neither can I condone what Dumbledore did to Harry in order to save WW.

Would have Harry went back if Dumbledore did not interfere again? Maybe, maybe not as far as I know. The fact he is he could not keep his mouth shut and let Harry make his own decision
 again. No, I do not think Harry is his slave and I never denied that "saving people thing" was also who Harry is. However, I do not know how much it is who Harry is, and how much of it is what Dumbledore forced Harry to be. I believe that Vanuel goes back to save people from evil because this is what he truly chose. After all he was having his conversation with Mr. Death himself; if I remember correctly, nobody who could really force him to make a choice. I wept for him, but I also respected his choice. I certainly cried for Harry, but I cannot buy that the choice was completely his own anymore. For that Dumbledore should have kept his mouth shut IMO.

This is NOT what I call an independent choice.

I am starting to type in the middle of the scene, just because too much to type, not because I want to omit anything, everybody knows where to check the wording after all.

"But you want me to go back?"
"I think," said Dumbledore, "that if you choose to return, there is a chance that he may be finished for good. I cannot promise it. But I know this, Harry, that you have less to fear from returning here than he does."
Harry glanced again at the raw-looking thing that trembled and choked in the shadow beneath the distant chair.
"Do not pity the dead, Harry. Pity the living, and above all those who live without love. BY returning you may ensure that fewer souls are maimed, fewer families are torn apart. If that seems to you as a worthy goal, then we say goodbye for the present".

Harry nodded and signed. Leaving this place would not be nearly as hard as walking into the Forest had been, but it was warm and light and peaceful here, and he knew that he was heading back to pain and fear and more loss"

Alla:

When I reread it, it looked to me even less independent than what I remembered. Nowhere, not ONCE Harry says that he wants to go back. Sure, I believe that he could have wanted to do that, but he does not say that, does he?  He is asking **Dumbledore** again, what he wants him to do. 

Of course if it is happening in Harry's head, then it is more of Harry's choice, but then he is in coma and convincing himself what Dumbledore would have wanted him to do, but to be honest new facts that Dumbledore says always made me believe that it was souls' conversation for real in Potterverse' limbo. IMO of course.

I mean, Dumbledore is looking as a little boy desperate for Harry's approval when he wants Harry to forgive him for a wild goose chase with Hallows is he not? Dumbledore looks for Harry's approval in a very limited way IMO and does not even apologize for some things that he did, to me Harry is still looking up for his approval where it matters. "Do you want me to go back?" 


JMO,

Alla