Hate as motivation for murder in canon WAS: Re: Duane: Harry was Right?

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 189738

> > Alla:
> > 
> 
> > Take a look at the contemporary hate crimes, there is a reason why they are called hate crimes IMO.
> 
> Pippin:
> Well I suppose that's a topic for OT-Chatter (remember OT-Chatter?)
> But why let the other side's rhetoric define the argument? I realize I am going against conventional wisdom here, but If we called them fear crimes, maybe people would not be so ready to brag about them or emulate the perpetrators. 

Alla:

It is only topic for OT chatter if we are talking about something else without ever bringing canon in the conversation, no? And I thought we do bring canon in the conversation. Hm, it is a very interesting suggestion, about calling them fear crimes and I see your point if the point of that exercise is to bring the people who commit them down a notch. However, my point is to argue that such crimes are being committed because of what they feel towards the victims. If you are suggesting that they really fear the victims who end up dead, well then I disagree.

> 
> Alla: 
> > And Peter killed out of fear? Sure, he did, but I have not noticed him loving those whom he killed. 
> 
> Pippin:
> He adored James or so we are told, and Harry sees in the Marauders picture no difference between his expression and Lupin's. 
> 
> Alla:
> Malfoys are capable of love? Sure they are, *between themselves*. I have not noticed Lucius loving muggle borns and muggles, and those are species they aim to kill and yes, I think hate is at least part of his motivations. 
> 
> Pippin:
> If Lucius had wanted to kill Muggles and Muggleborns he could have, but there is no evidence that he ever did. None of the Malfoys, even Lucius IIRC, ever kill anyone. That's my point. 

Alla:

I am only going to reply briefly, because I did not realize that you subscribe to that school of thought, if you are, our positions are too different and irreconcilable then so could you please clarify? Are you suggesting that Voldemort and his fair gang committed only murders that were described in canon and *nobody else* ever killed muggle and muggleborns unless canon describes it?

I do not subscribe to this school of thought, just as I do not need to see Harry, or any of the kids going to the bathroom or brushing their teeth, I do not need to see all the murders done by them. Do you really think that Lucius did not kill anybody? Ever? Do you really think that Snape never killed anybody? Ever? Not while fighting with the Order? Do you think that what they did during the World cup was the only time they did something like that and it always ended without any blood being spilled? To me the murders shown in canon provide a glimpse of their day to day activities, not the whole activities. Same as we are not shown every class which kids have every day, right? 

> 
> Alla:
>  What about Bella besides her being crazy murderer? Whom did she fear? I guess you could say that she feared what she imagined as her Lordie's love or lust for her, but again I see such hatred from her of muggles and muggle borns that I do not understand how you can claim that hate is not a powerful motivator to kill people in canon.
> 
> Pippin:
> I didn't say Bella killed out of fear. I'd say she killed like an attack dog, to please her master. Molly had the right word for what she is <g>. Now I'd agree that   hatred attracted her to Voldemort in the first place, and she wouldn't have joined him if his program was anti-pureblood or treating people with kindness and respect. But she killed to please him -- she'd have killed her own (hypothetical) sons if he asked her to, and surely their blood would be as pure as hers.

Alla:

My point is that if we want we can attach ANY number of motives to any of the Death eaters, but to me hate is always always there and I do not need to come up with any additional motives, to me hate is quite enough, although as I said, I agree that in some situations other motives are quite visible too. I just do not see a proof that in any of the situations you described hate is not there.

 
> 
> <snip> 
> > And again, what about Voldemort? I have not noticed any particular motivation for his killings besides hate. I guess we can assign world domination to him, but that is not mutually exclusive.
> 
> Pippin:
> What about him? Well I am not going to be a true LOON and go through every single murder in canon, but let's take the wand shadows as meant to be a representative sample.
> 
> Cedric the pureblood champion and Frank the common Muggle were both killed because they showed up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hate is hardly a factor: if a pureblood wizard had shown up in Frank's stead, he would have died just the same.
> 
> Bertha Jorkins, blood unknown, but by that very token we know she wasn't singled out because of it. Any witch gullible enough to follow Peter  into the forest would have done. 
> 
> Then there's Lily. And that's really interesting. There's no doubt that Voldemort hates her.  She's everything in the world that he hates most: a Dumbledore supporter, a Muggleborn witch married to a pureblood, and she's defied Voldemort not once but three times. But if we don't believe that Voldemort would have spared her, there's no story. Everything hinges on the fact that Voldemort, our star example of hatred, did not feel he had to kill this woman he hated so much.
> 
> And lastly James. Voldemort hated him, of course. But we get to ride along in Voldemort's mind as he is closing in, and it is not hatred that he is thinking about, nor even anger. Instead he is enjoying the feeling of power and control he has. That's what drives him, that's what he gets out of killing. 

Alla:

Yeah, we do differ drastically. Sorry for snipping so much, but please see above. I do not think that those are the only murders he committed. Remember Dumbledore's claim about hurting all those nameless people to keep Harry safe in OOP, when he was eh "apologizing" and telling Harry "everything"? Somebody had to hurt and kill them all, no? Somebody had to kill in order for Aurors to be on their trail and eh if Moody tried to bring people alive but not always managed, probably there were casualties on aurors' side too? No, I am not so sure that he would have spared Lily, and again, maybe I am missing something, but even if he would all that I am saying is that Hate matters for him, hate is where he started.

Sure, maybe he can control that hate sometimes when he has other motivations when he wants to please one of his creeps (Snape). That's not my point, I am just saying that I cannot *dismiss* hate as one of the factors and often, not always one of the most powerful ones IMO.

Pippin:
> Tell me, do you think Voldemort was born hating Muggles? I think he learned to fear them first. When Dumbledore finds him in the orphanage he is not plotting world domination, he is just hoping not to be put in an asylum. 

Alla:

I do not want to get into nature v nurture here, but how does the fact that he fears his abilities transforms into him fearing Muggles first. And yeah I would say JKR tried to make him pretty young sociopath. I would have understand if he was shown trying to hurt his teachers only, but those two kids whom he hurt, he feared them? I do not buy it, sorry. I think it was hate.
<SNIP>


Sorry for somewhat disjointed response, if any of your points was ignored, was not intentional, just have to run.