Hate as motivation for murder in canon WAS: Re: Duane: Harry was Right?

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 189739

 
> Alla:
> 
> It is only topic for OT chatter if we are talking about something else without ever bringing canon in the conversation, no? 

Pippin:
Correct. But I thought some people might want to discuss hate crimes without reference to canon.
 
> Alla:
> 
> I am only going to reply briefly, because I did not realize that you subscribe to that school of thought, if you are, our positions are too different and irreconcilable then so could you please clarify? Are you suggesting that Voldemort and his fair gang committed only murders that were described in canon and *nobody else* ever killed muggle and muggleborns unless canon describes it?

Pippin:
Not at all.  I am suggesting that the killings of Muggles and Muggleborns that we do hear about are typical. Voldemort wants them done for strategic purposes: to send a message to Fudge for example. He's annoyed at Lucius  for leading an anti-Muggle riot instead of trying to restore him to power, and I don't think he would have been any less annoyed if the Robertses had been killed.

 That could certainly have happened, but it would have happened (IMO) either because someone became frightened or careless, or  because  some people in the crowd already lacked the normal human inhibitions against killing. But I don't think that either history or canon shows that hatred, just by existing, will destroy that inhibition. Hatred definitely stirs aggression, and some people don't need more reason than that to kill. But I think canon shows that most people do. 

What hate does, I think, is make it easier for people who do lack that inhibition to  get away with killing. It's hate that makes people think that the ones who died deserved what they got. So the killers, instead of being made to stop, may keep on killing.

<snip>

Alla:
Do you really think that Lucius did not kill anybody? Ever? Do you really think that Snape never killed anybody? Ever? 

Pippin:
I think (and I am not pretending to be any kind of expert on this, so anyone who is, feel free to shoot me down) that  human beings,  both in real life and in canon, display a strong phobia against killing, which affects all but a small percentage of the population. 

JKR shows us a few people who clearly do not have such a phobia: Voldemort himself, Bellatrix, Fenrir, and Barty Jr  for example . And she shows us Death Eaters who do have it: Snape, accused of always slipping out of action; Narcissa, who makes no move to kill the fox, and  Lucius, who only threatens to curse the families of the governors who defy him and  has to be stung to rage before he makes a move against Harry. 

Ginny might have died because of the Diary, but that was not Lucius's purpose. He wanted her alive to take the blame for opening the Chamber so that Arthur would be discredited. I'd say that if JKR intended to portray Lucius as a killer she missed so many opportunities that it's a poorly drawn portrait indeed. She makes it clear that while killing is ordinary behavior for some Death Eaters, it isn't for others. It's not  a routine activity which has no thematic or plotline purpose in canon, but we can assume takes place, like brushing teeth. 

Of course  in fiction it's often convenient to suppose that the phobia against killing does not exist and people can kill if they want to without being traumatized. But canon doesn't show this. Peter and Snape are traumatized by the killings they do. Dumbledore is traumatized just by the thought that he might have killed an innocent person, and glad to be reminded that there is this difference between him and Voldemort,  that he never lost his reluctance to kill.

In real life, armies have to invest quite a bit of training to get their soldiers to kill in combat -- it's not just a matter of teaching them to use their weapons and pointing them at the foes. Otherwise, as I understand it,  most of them will just freeze up.


> 
> Alla:
> 
> I do not want to get into nature v nurture here, but how does the fact that he fears his abilities transforms into him fearing Muggles first. And yeah I would say JKR tried to make him pretty young sociopath. I would have understand if he was shown trying to hurt his teachers only, but those two kids whom he hurt, he feared them? I do not buy it, sorry. I think it was hate.
> <SNIP>

Pippin:
We are talking about hate as a motive for murder, not for treating people badly. Voldemort didn't kill those kids. And he wouldn't have feared being put in an asylum if he thought he could easily escape. He feared that Muggles could harm him if they decided he was dangerous enough.

Pippin