Legilimency without consent WAS: Obviously guilty

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 189676


> Nikkalmati
> 
> I agree that the Legilimans does not need consent, but can he or she do it without being detected?  I guess I would need chapter and verse on when Snape and DD are suspected of performing it undected on Harry (or anyone else) before I would take it as proof that such a thing is possible.  

Pippin:
I don't think it's stealth, exactly. Harry gets a distinct sensation when Dumbledore looks intently at him, as if he is being x-rayed. It's just that he doesn't know what it means. And certainly people know when Voldemort is invading their minds, though again Harry doesn't know what it means in the earlier books and  is only aware of his burning scar. 

I would say that Dumbledore and Voldemort are such powerful legilimenses that they can't use stealth except when they're dealing with a Muggle or a  naive inexperienced wizard. 

Draco can sense that Snape is trying to legilimens him and block it. I'd say, too, that if Snape thought occlumency was difficult, he would have been sure from the start that Harry could not learn it, and rather impressed that Draco did. 

That would indicate to me that all the Marauders learned occlumency as a matter of course.  Just as  anyone studying the art of disguise in RL would be sure to discover the importance of learning to disguise one's walk as well as one's general appearance, a wizarding book on the art of disguise would surely mention the need to disguise one's thoughts. 

In James's case, there's also the problem that Dumbledore would not get an important piece of information, like finding out that Peter is going to be the Secret-keeper, and just sit on it. He would try to use it in some way. That would draw his attention to Peter, and then surely he would have found out that Peter was the spy. 

Now, one could postulate an ESE!Dumbledore who did know that. 

But it's not like Dumbledore to know something that Voldemort thinks is secret from him and not use it in some way. He wouldn't just wait for Peter to act, he'd try to push him one way or the other, and there's no canon showing that. Certainly if Peter had any inkling that Dumbledore suspected him at all, he'd never have chosen Hogwarts for a place to hide.

I also think that we  get a clue when Dumbledore sees an advantage or something works out according to his plans -- he can't help but be pleased with himself. But there's never any clue that he's happy about Sirius's death or captivity, still less James' and Lily's. 

Pippin