Harry's alleged debt to Dumbledore and Snape WAS: Re: Chapter Discussion

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 190820

 
> Alla:
> 
> I am just not up to a long version now :), but the short version is - not to leave him with Dursleys if the protection was not shown OR to actually check upon him wih Dursleys. Because it makes no sense to me when one LETTER from Dumbledore stops Dursleys from throwing them out, but for ten years he could not be bothered to show up because for plot purposes JKR needed Harry to suffer. Thats abuse to me, abuse and neglect, no matter how much plot needed it.


Pippin:
I thought we had agreed on the  evidence for the protection? Canon says that powerful magic does not reveal itself by bangs and flashes -- even Dumbledore cannot always detect its presence. Voldemort says it is there, and neither he nor his agents ever penetrate Privet Drive while the magic lasts, though they manage to get everywhere else that there is something Voldemort wants. 


Canon explains why Dumbledore did not want to make it too obvious that he, or any other wizard, cared about Harry. Harry agreed with that reasoning -- and showed it by breaking up with Ginny before Voldemort could use her against him. 

As for wizards who didn't care about Harry...we know that unsuspected DE's were everywhere. Sirius broke out of Azkaban to stop one of them from harming Harry, but what could  he have done about the ones that he didn't know about? He admits there were many of them. 

There was only one person who could stand between Harry and the unsuspected DE's -- and that person, unfortunately, was Petunia.

The only thing Petunia wanted from the magical world was to be left alone -- what else could Dumbledore offer her to induce her to take Harry except a promise that, except in case of emergencies, no witch or wizard would enter her home without permission from her? It's not speculation that in every case but one, permission had to be given  before a fully-qualified wizard could enter the house. The exception is OOP, where I think we can agree Harry's deterioration is reaching an alarming state, ie, an emergency exists. 

 Harry supposes the Dursleys would be tempted by wizard gold, but as we see Petunia won't accept so much as a glass of mead from Dumbledore. She's had far too much experience with pockets full of frogspawn and teacups turning into rats to accept anything from a wizard no matter how appealing it might appear.
 

Alla:
<snip>
 It is because I consider him a hypocritical manipulator, who would IMO sacrifice anybody's life and happiness to achieve his goals. Even if the goal is noble, as in to fight against Voldemort, but the way he did it, makes him really not that much better than Voldemort in my eyes.

Pippin:
I don't know about JKR's ethics, but IMO, you are harder on Dumbledore than Jewish ethics would be.  In Jewish law, any commandment may be broken except those against murder, idolatry,  and sexual crimes, in order to save a life.  And  if it is done to stop someone who is pursuing another to take their life,  the sacrifice of life is not only permitted  but required.

 Harry and Dumbledore agree that Dumbledore never killed unless he had to, which would mean he did not commit murder. 

Dumbledore never idolized anyone after Grindelwald, and fanfic aside, I think it is safe to assume he didn't commit any sexual crimes either. 

Dumbledore admits to selfishness, but he only admires himself when his plans work, and when his plans work they save lives.

Pippin