Harry's alleged debt to Dumbledore and Snape WAS: Re: Chapter Discussion

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 190862



> Bookcrazzzy:
> The Elder Wand and the question of who is the master of the stick is an
> great example of JKR's ability to misdirect the reader.  The mysteries of
> the "ancient magic" were worked out over the whole of the books and I think
> that it was amazing the way that the fairy tale and the hallows integrated
> into so many areas of the story.

Alla:

If by misdirecting the reader you mean complicating the theme of friendship, loyalty and sacrifice by figuring out who is the master of the stick, then I will agree with you, otherwise to me it is just introducing a new toy to complicate thing and the least thematic one of all three Hallows IMO actually, for Harry I mean. Harry never was really tempted by Elder wand, he was tempted by resurrection stone, Dumbledore was tempted by it.

> 
> > > Alla:
> > > My point was that Dumbledore did not even TRY to start developing such
> > culture (unity and shared sacrifice) and that we see that it is possible,
> > that people who were Dumbledore's comrades ARE able > to do that, but
> > Dumbledore effectively tied their hands AND crippled Harry's and his
> > friends, when he forbade Harry to share information with them IMO.
> >
> Bookcrazzzy:
> DD was the main proponent of unity in the WW.  He reached out to all
> creatures without prejudice in ways that no one else did - learning mermish,
> hiring Firenze, sending Hagrid to the giants, treating the house elves
> differently and more.

Alla:

Yes he did. Only the thing is, those beings play minor roles in the story, except Dobby of course, who is as we are told repeatedly is an odd elf out who wants to be free and when it came to people who are more major characters, I do not see the promotion of that unity at all. So yes, of course I did not mean to deny that he tried to reach out to other races. 


Bookcrrazzzy: 
> As to forbidding Harry to share information, the reason was that Harry was
> going after the horcruxes and it was vital that LV not realize what he was
> up to.  Do you think that LV could have been kept in the dark if lots of
> people were asking questions and searching for horcruxes?  The risks would
> have gone up drastically with each person who knew.

Alla:

In Dumbledore's twisted mind I am sure it was that way. The thing is, those whom he IMO should have shared information with were his trusted soldiers supposedly picked by him, and yes, I think they could have kept Voldemort's in the dark as much and for that long as Harry did, which was not that long either.

>  Bookcrazzzy:
> Let's see.  DD reached out to the various creatures of the WW as I mentioned
> earlier.  He founded the Order of the Phoenix and developed the use of
> patronuses for secure communications and helped to secure the Black
> residence as a headquarters.  In *all* of his doings, DD promoted unity far
> more than any other person in the WW.  The *only* exception is that he did
> not want the trio having help in searching out and destroying the
> horcruxes.  As I mentioned earlier, minimizing the risk of LV finding out
> that his secrets were known and his horcruxes were being destroyed was
> critical, but also, what help could others really have provided in the
> specific task of the horcruxes?  No one knew more than the trio about Tom
> Riddle and his past and very few knew anything at all about horcruxes.  How
> could they have really helped Harry except by doing what they did - fighting
> LV and the DEs in whatever ways that they could, keeping the heat off of the
> trio?  Also, note that they were all fighting together in the end which was
> *after* LV knew that Harry was finding and destroying the horcruxes.

Alla:
Yes nobody knew about Tom Riddle being Voldemort, didn't they? And why is that? Because Dumbledore who have had an excellent chance to start putting down the legend of all powerful Lord Voldemort and shout from the roof to the world that he was a nobody scared teenager Tom Riddle chose to keep this information to himself. He had a chance to start making evil look MUCH less in the eyes of scared public before Harry ever entered the picture. Why didn't he do it? This is to me one of the most unforgivable inactions of Dumbledore. I mean, I know why he did not do it, because his ego was too big and he thought that only he needs to know this information, no matter how logical the opposite of this sounds. 

I also do not know about Dumbledore *promoting* unity. As I said, I agree that he tried to reach out to different races, I do not think he did enough, but certainly he did more than people who did nothing, but the threshold is so low that to me what Dumbledore did is really not much, only in comparison with those who did nothing. Note that when Dumbledore had a chance to influence unity at the bigger scale, of course he denied and did not want to be a minister. Of course it is much easier to create his web on the smaller scale and use kids as his pawns, when you are a Headmaster, rather than do a dirty and often ungrateful job of politics when people could actually SEE what you are doing with more clarity sometimes. And most importantly he did nothing where it really mattered IMO. Because he was grooming Harry to be a lamb of WW, didn't he? He did not really thought that elves or centaurs would help him win the war, and he did not even attempt to get allies for Harry who could have helped him in the search.

As to how they could have helped? Lets see, Lupin suggested his help in the search, which Harry mightily rejected, here is one possibility.