[HPforGrownups] Harry's alleged debt to Dumbledore and Snape WAS: Re: Chapter Discussion

Margaret Fenney fenneyml at gmail.com
Tue Jul 12 00:21:27 UTC 2011


No: HPFGUIDX 190860

>
> > Alla:
>
> > When Prophecy was revealed I groaned, hey it did not take a genuis to
> figure out the general idea of the ending IMO, Harry is destined to fight
> Voldemort because he is a Chosen one and he will either > win or he will
> loose (likely to win but I was never completely sure that he will survive).
> I am not saying that Prophecy was bad per se, just that it is such a cliche
> of the genre and it was up to her to give > it fresh twist or not.
> > No, scratch that, not even at Elder wand per se, because it was a nice
> fairy tale, at who the heck is the master of the stick and why.
>
Bookcrazzzy:
The Elder Wand and the question of who is the master of the stick is an
great example of JKR's ability to misdirect the reader.  The mysteries of
the "ancient magic" were worked out over the whole of the books and I think
that it was amazing the way that the fairy tale and the hallows integrated
into so many areas of the story.

> > Alla:
> > My point was that Dumbledore did not even TRY to start developing such
> culture (unity and shared sacrifice) and that we see that it is possible,
> that people who were Dumbledore's comrades ARE able > to do that, but
> Dumbledore effectively tied their hands AND crippled Harry's and his
> friends, when he forbade Harry to share information with them IMO.
>
Bookcrazzzy:
DD was the main proponent of unity in the WW.  He reached out to all
creatures without prejudice in ways that no one else did - learning mermish,
hiring Firenze, sending Hagrid to the giants, treating the house elves
differently and more.

As to forbidding Harry to share information, the reason was that Harry was
going after the horcruxes and it was vital that LV not realize what he was
up to.  Do you think that LV could have been kept in the dark if lots of
people were asking questions and searching for horcruxes?  The risks would
have gone up drastically with each person who knew.

>
> >Alla:
> >Yes, but those who KNEW Harry were all fighting together at the end and
> instead of giving them common goal of helping Harry Dumbledore crushed it.
>
 Bookcrazzzy:
Let's see.  DD reached out to the various creatures of the WW as I mentioned
earlier.  He founded the Order of the Phoenix and developed the use of
patronuses for secure communications and helped to secure the Black
residence as a headquarters.  In *all* of his doings, DD promoted unity far
more than any other person in the WW.  The *only* exception is that he did
not want the trio having help in searching out and destroying the
horcruxes.  As I mentioned earlier, minimizing the risk of LV finding out
that his secrets were known and his horcruxes were being destroyed was
critical, but also, what help could others really have provided in the
specific task of the horcruxes?  No one knew more than the trio about Tom
Riddle and his past and very few knew anything at all about horcruxes.  How
could they have really helped Harry except by doing what they did - fighting
LV and the DEs in whatever ways that they could, keeping the heat off of the
trio?  Also, note that they were all fighting together in the end which was
*after* LV knew that Harry was finding and destroying the horcruxes.

>
> Pippin:
> > Of Harry's defenders in the Battle of Hogwarts, how many are there only
> because Dumbledore protected them or their families when no one else would
> have tried? Hagrid, Lupin, Firenze, Grawp, Kreacher, even Narcissa
> Malfoy...would Harry be alive if it wasn't for them?
> > Alla:
> > I think that all of them are there for something bigger than that and no,
> I do not see that any of them is of any help for Harry's survival. That's my
> point. They could have helped MUCH more if only given
> > a chance. And yes, Narcissa helped, of course she did.
>
 Bookcrazzzy:
Hagrid would not have been at Hogwarts if DD hadn't gotten him hired as
grounds keeper and Grawp would not have been there if Hagrid had not been
and if Hagrid had not been confident that DD would support his need to have
his half-brother close by.  Who knows where Lupin would have been if it
hadn't been for DD's support of him in encouraging him to have as normal a
life as possible?  DD helped to teach Harry about house elves and to see
them as beings with feelings or Kreacher would not have been there.  The
centaurs were strongly against being involved in any way except for Firenze
who fought against his herd to work with DD.  Would the centaurs have joined
the last battle if it weren't for Firenze?   Hate DD if you wish but he
treated all of those creatures far better than anyone else in the WW.


> __._,_.
>


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