varying views of characters

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 191103



> Alla: 
> > I so do not follow your point about the information ministry should have? Ministry should have the information that Peter fed them?! A lie?!
> 
> Pippin:
> The point is, only James, Sirius and Peter knew that Peter was a liar. Dumbledore did not. Not only was Peter lying about who the secret keeper was, James and Sirius helped him to do it. Lupin was deceived too. Maybe even Lily.

Alla:

I would not go as far as to say that James and Sirius helped him to do it, because to me that means they helped him to betray them, but sure yes only they knew. Neither would I agree that Lily was deceived too, but of course both of us could be right on that point. I still do not follow your point though, read on.


Pippin:
> Peter accused Sirius of betraying Lily and James in front of a crowd of witnesses -- naturally the Ministry would have asked Dumbledore and others what he was talking about, since everyone knew that Lily and James had been murdered by Voldemort.

Alla:

Yes and what is the problem with Ministry knowing it?

Poppon: 
>  Dumbledore could have refused to answer the question, but why should he? Everyone who believed that Sirius was the secret keeper would have wanted him hunted down and caught, and the Ministry's resources for doing that were far greater than Dumbledore's. 

Alla:

Please clarify more, if you do not mind? What is the problem with Ministry knowing that there was a Secret keeper spell used? Am confused. I mean, I do not understand what the problem is, but regardless the whole world ended up "knowing" a lie anyway. Are you saying that Order members are the only people who knew Secret keeper spell?


> 
> Alla:
>  I completely do not follow what this has to do with Sirius' loyalty to the order? And speaking about loyalty, does Dumbledore owe any loyalty to his soldiers? Like maybe again going to my original point - investigate further?
> 
> Pippin:
> Here's an example from real life. I was just reading the obituary of a Navajo Code Talker, part of a secret operation that used the Navajo language as a code during WWII. The Germans never cracked it -- in fact it stayed classified for years after the war was over. 
> 
> This man was stationed overseas during the war, and he was told that if he was captured, he should die for his country. 


Alla:

Okay, so thats what you seems to be saying? That only Order knew Secret keeper spell? Or you are saying something different? I do not see your analogy at all, because I do not see how Secret keeper spell is that mystery known only to the Members of the order, I do not see how this particular spell would have been so important to the war against Voldemort that innocent life should have been so easily sacrificed for it.  Did I forget some canon about it? That Secret keeper was a discovery of the order?

 
Pippin: 
> That's what it means to be part of a secret war -- the secrets are more important than you are, period. The general's job is not to see that his soldiers do not die to keep their secrets -- just the opposite. It is only his job to see that they do not die in vain. 

Alla:

I am afraid I do not see that this is the secret to die for in the first place.

 
Pippin:
> Sirius knows that the war against Voldemort is not over. He knows that the Ministry is full of unidentified DE's. So he has to behave exactly as if he'd been captured by Death Eaters, ie, he'll die before he tells them anything.  Dumbledore can't go to Azkaban to interrogate him, nor would Sirius expect it, because the Ministry will be listening to everything they say.

> Pippin:
>  I agree that JKR needed a way for Dumbledore to have the cloak so he could give it to Harry. She couldn't leave it in the ruins for Sirius or Peter to find. 
> 
>  She could have given Dumbledore a noble reason for taking it, and she didn't. But she also made it clear that James wasn't using it to protect his family either -- he was using it to sneak out of the house when being cooped up with his young family got to be too much for him. 
> 
> As an empty-nester I sympathize completely, BTW.
> 
>  But you can't have it both ways.
> 
> If the cloak could have been used as a protection against Voldemort, then it wasn't an idle or selfish pursuit to try to discover its secrets. OTOH, if it was useless against him, then Lily and James were not endangered by its absence. 

Alla:

Sorry, but she did not make clear anything of the kind to me. James did not NEED to use the cloak to protect his family YET. He was under Secret keeper spell, why would he use the cloak in the house? When he NEEDED to use the cloak to protect his family he did not have it thanks to Dumbledore. Yeah, I know forgiving Harry convinced himself that it would not have helped. We never know though, wouldn't we? It may have not helped, or it may have helped, they did not have a chance to try thanks to Dumbledore IMO.


> Pippin:
> Since Harry and Voldemort are the only characters whose motives we know first-hand it is possible to invent sinister motives for all the characters. We've done that with Lupin and McGonagall and even Ron. But if you make Dumbledore the chess-player instead of JKR, it gives DD more power over the other characters than he ever had in canon and makes them much more puppet-like than they actually are, which I think is an injustice to JKR's craft.  

Alla:

But thats my point. I have to constantly remind myself that this is the magical hand of the author doing the things like Dumbledore letting Sirius rot in prison because Harry needs to grow up alone and unloved, or not letting Dumbledore check on Harry *once* for that very reason, because laws of genre demand so. It is a bit tiresome. It is MUCH easier to see Dumbledore as chessmaster, because then I do not need to think of the author and her pulling strings, if that makes sense.  

Pippin: 
> Sirius is hardly the only Order member who is depicted as contesting with or disobeying Dumbledore. Peter betrayed him, Lily and James refused to make him the secret keeper, Lupin kept the secrets of the animagi and the Marauders map for years, Arthur fell asleep on duty, Snape stopped the Occlumency lessons, Molly tried to keep Ron, Harry and Hermione from their mission, McGonagall tried to get Harry to tell her secrets, Mundungus used an Order safe house as a hiding place for stolen goods etc. 

Alla:

I meant open to his face disobedience. I doubt Peter would have ever dared to have the face to face conversation with Dumbledore. I think Arthur would have been very ashamed. Molly did it after Dumbledore died, same with McGonagall. I doubt Mundungus wanted a confrontation. But you are right I should have added Lily and James to the list.


> Alla:
>  It is funny how when Sirius is dead Ministry believes his innocence despite what Dumbledore proclaimed, how hard it would be. 
> 
> Pippin:
> It got a lot easier when Sirius got himself killed fighting for the Order in front of a room full of witnesses and Fudge saw Voldemort with his own eyes.

Alla:

Sorry I have to disagree. Dumbledore did not even try to testify on Sirius' behalf after PoA and something tells me that his testimony especially when he was still in favor with Fudge would have been more than enough. Hmmm, he had no problem doing so when Sirius was arrested. But now when he could tell totally different story, for some reason he stopped. Maybe he did not want Sirius close to Harry even now? And when he is dead, of course it does not matter. And if Ministry was so disinclined to believe him according to him, why exactly would it believe few more witnesses? There were order members there, right? Who else? Really not that many people. Note, Peter is STILL not there, I mean either dead or alive. His departure mattered so much according to Dumbledore when he run away to weigh on the credibility, but when Sirius is dead it does not matter? Now everybody will believe Dumbledore?

JMO,

Alla