varying views of characters

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 191105

 
> Alla:
> 
> I would not go as far as to say that James and Sirius helped him to do it, because to me that means they helped him to betray them, but sure yes only they knew. Neither would I agree that Lily was deceived too, but of course both of us could be right on that point. I still do not follow your point though, read on.
> 

Pippin:
Yes, exactly, they helped Peter to betray them. Sad but true.  What part of "they trusted the wrong person" do you not understand? 

> Pippin: 
> >  Dumbledore could have refused to answer the question, but why should he? Everyone who believed that Sirius was the secret keeper would have wanted him hunted down and caught, and the Ministry's resources for doing that were far greater than Dumbledore's. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Please clarify more, if you do not mind? What is the problem with Ministry knowing that there was a Secret keeper spell used? Am confused. I mean, I do not understand what the problem is, but regardless the whole world ended up "knowing" a lie anyway. Are you saying that Order members are the only people who knew Secret keeper spell?

Pippin:
No. But canon is that very few people knew that Sirius had betrayed the Potters. As far as most people knew, he'd been sent to Azkaban for the daylight murder of twelve Muggles and a wizard. But the way I read Fudge's account, the Ministry was already after Sirius because Dumbledore and/or others, such as Lupin, had given evidence that Sirius was the Secret Keeper and must have betrayed the Potters. That theory would have been confirmed by Pettigrew's "last words."

Alla:
> 
> Okay, so thats what you seems to be saying? That only Order knew Secret keeper spell? Or you are saying something different? I do not see your analogy at all, because I do not see how Secret keeper spell is that mystery known only to the Members of the order, I do not see how this particular spell would have been so important to the war against Voldemort that innocent life should have been so easily sacrificed for it.  Did I forget some canon about it? That Secret keeper was a discovery of the order?

Pippin:

I am not talking about the Secret Keeper spell, I am talking  about everything  that Sirius knows. There is no way for Sirius to tell what information might be useful to the enemy, so he can't say anything at all.  

Too bad he didn't remember that when he was trying to make sure Kreacher  kept his silence. 


> Alla:
> 
> Sorry, but she did not make clear anything of the kind to me. James did not NEED to use the cloak to protect his family YET. He was under Secret keeper spell, why would he use the cloak in the house?

Pippin:
And if Voldemort found a way to break the spell while James was out of the house?
No, sorry, doesn't work for me. 

> Alla:
> 
> But thats my point. I have to constantly remind myself that this is the magical hand of the author doing the things like Dumbledore letting Sirius rot in prison because Harry needs to grow up alone and unloved, or not letting Dumbledore check on Harry *once* for that very reason, because laws of genre demand so. It is a bit tiresome. It is MUCH easier to see Dumbledore as chessmaster, because then I do not need to think of the author and her pulling strings, if that makes sense.  

Pippin:
That doesn't work either. If Harry is so important to Dumbledore's evil plans, he still should have checked on him personally. The only reason that works is the one JKR gave us--  Dumbledore could not afford to let anyone know that Harry was so important to his plans.

I don't see why that should be harder to believe  than that there is a secret platform at King's Cross Station, or a whole hidden community of magical beings and beasts, or that broomsticks fly. But that's just me :)

> 

> > Alla:
> >  It is funny how when Sirius is dead Ministry believes his innocence despite what Dumbledore proclaimed, how hard it would be. 
> > 
> > Pippin:
> > It got a lot easier when Sirius got himself killed fighting for the Order in front of a room full of witnesses and Fudge saw Voldemort with his own eyes.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Sorry I have to disagree. Dumbledore did not even try to testify on Sirius' behalf after PoA and something tells me that his testimony especially when he was still in favor with Fudge would have been more than enough.

Pippin:
When was Dumbledore going to get a chance to testify? The dementor's kiss had already been approved, and Dumbledore had no power to set that ruling aside.  Sirius was going to be kissed within minutes, do you really want to bet his soul that Fudge was going to see reason? You heard him: Harry and Hermione were obviously disturbed in their minds.

And what could Dumbledore testify to? 
All he knows is hearsay.  The only people who can testify directly are Harry, Hermione and Lupin and Sirius himself, none of whom would be a credible witness. To Fudge, that is. 

Dumbledore was  convinced by the evidence of Harry's patronus. But establishing that James and Sirius had been illegal animagi was not going to make Sirius look like an innocent man. 

Nonetheless we know DD did try to tell Fudge the truth before he was out of favor. Fudge refers to this in ch 35 of GoF: "For heaven's sake, Dumbledore--the boy was full of some crackpot story at the end of last year, too -- his tales are getting taller, and you're still swallowing them -- the boy can talk to snakes, Dumbledore, and you still think he's trustworthy?"

Fudge was not going to believe anything that would "destabilize" everything he had worked for for thirteen years. 

Pippin