varying views of characters

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 191111



.> > Alla:
> > 
> > I would not go as far as to say that James and Sirius helped him to do it, because to me that means they helped him to betray them, but sure yes only they knew. Neither would I agree that Lily was deceived too, but of course both of us could be right on that point. I still do not follow your point though, read on.
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> Yes, exactly, they helped Peter to betray them. Sad but true.  What part of "they trusted the wrong person" do you not understand? 

Alla:

Yes, "trusted the wrong person" I understand perfectly. That to me does not equal "helped him to betray them". Oh, I see, we are arguing semantics here. Yes, ok, I can agree with "unwillingly helped him to betray them". Surely you will not argue that they wanted to be betrayed?


> Pippin:
> No. But canon is that very few people knew that Sirius had betrayed the Potters. As far as most people knew, he'd been sent to Azkaban for the daylight murder of twelve Muggles and a wizard. But the way I read Fudge's account, the Ministry was already after Sirius because Dumbledore and/or others, such as Lupin, had given evidence that Sirius was the Secret Keeper and must have betrayed the Potters. That theory would have been confirmed by Pettigrew's "last words."

Alla:

Yes, sure they were after all of this happened, how does this contradicts my point that Dumbledore did not help Sirius and did everything he could to harm him?

> Pippin:
> 
> I am not talking about the Secret Keeper spell, I am talking  about everything  that Sirius knows. There is no way for Sirius to tell what information might be useful to the enemy, so he can't say anything at all.  

Alla:

Ah, I see. Basically you are saying that Sirius confessed because he did not want to give some information to the Ministry because it can be infiltrated by enemy? But again what does this has to do with anything I said?  The only information Sirius could have given to the Ministry to try to make his case if he was allowed, was the information about Secret keeper and the switch. How was this information a secret that was worth protecting because of loyalty  to the Order? The idea that spell itself was worth protecting was the only one I could see, but since this was not it, I am at loss here. 


Pippin: 
> Too bad he didn't remember that when he was trying to make sure Kreacher  kept his silence. 

Alla:

The way I see it there was nothing of the sort to remember when he was arrested. The way I see it he confessed out of guilt for not being able to recognise that Peter would be a traitor (as good as killed them). But again to me for whatever reason he confessed it has nothing to do with what Dumbledore did not do to help him and with what Dumbledore did to harm him.


> > Alla:
> > 
> > Sorry, but she did not make clear anything of the kind to me. James did not NEED to use the cloak to protect his family YET. He was under Secret keeper spell, why would he use the cloak in the house?
> 
> Pippin:
> And if Voldemort found a way to break the spell while James was out of the house?
> No, sorry, doesn't work for me. 

Alla:

Huh? So whose fault would that have been? Maybe Dumbledore's who demanded such a meeting?



> 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > But thats my point. I have to constantly remind myself that this is the magical hand of the author doing the things like Dumbledore letting Sirius rot in prison because Harry needs to grow up alone and unloved, or not letting Dumbledore check on Harry *once* for that very reason, because laws of genre demand so. It is a bit tiresome. It is MUCH easier to see Dumbledore as chessmaster, because then I do not need to think of the author and her pulling strings, if that makes sense.  
> 
> Pippin:
> That doesn't work either. If Harry is so important to Dumbledore's evil plans, he still should have checked on him personally. The only reason that works is the one JKR gave us--  Dumbledore could not afford to let anyone know that Harry was so important to his plans.
> 
> I don't see why that should be harder to believe  than that there is a secret platform at King's Cross Station, or a whole hidden community of magical beings and beasts, or that broomsticks fly. But that's just me :)


Alla:

But we had been told over and over and over that Harry IS important to his plans, you consider them good, I consider them sinister, but Harry is important to him, this is a fact. If Dumbledore could not afford to let anybody know, maybe he should have been more careful about bringing McGonagall and Hagrid there in the first place. If Dumbledore could not afford to let anybody know, maybe he should not have placed that mockery of the helper who did not do anything to help Harry at all near by?

But regardless, the reason that he could not afford to let anybody know is not enough for me to let Harry be abused. The damn protection is already in place and not going to break if Dumbledore is going to check on him and I know I said it gazillion times, but they did threaten Dursleys  when author felt that it was convenient and it worked. That to me points to magical hands of the author again - Harry had to suffer when he was little but when he is fifteen or sixteen and cares less and less and can stand his own against his disgusting "family", then it is ok for people to show up at the door?



> 
> > 
> Pippin:
> When was Dumbledore going to get a chance to testify? The dementor's kiss had already been approved, and Dumbledore had no power to set that ruling aside.  Sirius was going to be kissed within minutes, do you really want to bet his soul that Fudge was going to see reason? You heard him: Harry and Hermione were obviously disturbed in their minds.

Alla:

How about whispering in Fudge' ear at least trying to? 


Pippin: 
> And what could Dumbledore testify to? 
> All he knows is hearsay.  The only people who can testify directly are Harry, Hermione and Lupin and Sirius himself, none of whom would be a credible witness. To Fudge, that is. 

Alla:

I would speculate that the first thing he did when he talked to Sirius was legilimensing him big time and this and not Harry's Patronus (how does that could convince him of Siriu' innocence?) that convinced him. When he testified about Sirius supposedly being a  Secret keeper he definitely only had a hearsay and a wrong one at that, I did not see it stopping him. Maybe he should have tried harder to actually save a life without making him into exile.


Pippin:
<SNIP>
> Nonetheless we know DD did try to tell Fudge the truth before he was out of favor. Fudge refers to this in ch 35 of GoF: "For heaven's sake, Dumbledore--the boy was full of some crackpot story at the end of last year, too -- his tales are getting taller, and you're still swallowing them -- the boy can talk to snakes, Dumbledore, and you still think he's trustworthy?"

Alla:

I only know that he told Fudge that he believes Harry, not that Harry managed to say much.


> 
> Fudge was not going to believe anything that would "destabilize" everything he had worked for for thirteen years. 
> 
> Pippin
>