Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 190503


Julie:
Sirius knew the truth and the possible outcome but did not warn or stop Snape
(or not tell Snape about the Shack in the first place). If he did not stop an
event (good or bad) when he could, then he allowed it to go on. Yes, in a
passive sense, but IMO that is still wrong.

Alla:

And to me this makes Snape less responsible for deciding to go there, I guess we have to agree to disagree, but as I said before this is something I will never understand.  Sirius is not responsible for anybody else's choices, in my opinion, only his own. This was a bad choice, but he did not make Snape go there. Gave him information that made it easier for Snape to go? Of course! But he still did not have to.

Julie:
James certainly thought so. I can only hope that James went there not only to save Remus from potentially being a killer, but to save Snape from being killed also (which is what the textimplies). Which makes James a much better person than Sirius in this scene, and perhaps in general, IMO. I do agree that Remus being unaware of any of it was the most wronged person, BTW, which certainly doesn't do my opinion of teenaged Sirius any favors.

Alla:
But I agree with you here. Once Snape was there, of course he had a great chance to be killed and I also hope that James went there to save him too. Once he was there! Nobody sent him there in the first place. All that I am saying is that choice to go there was Snape's and  Snape's alone and I do not buy that it was Sirius' responsibility for Snape's desire to go there, at all. Of course Sirius should not have done it, but the only way Snape could have become a victim of werewolf if he would have made a choice to use Sirius' information.
As to my opinion of teenage Sirius, well  that is why I asked the question in the first place, I do want to think that he was not thinking at all, when he came up with the Prank and Remus' forgiveness still boggles my mind, even though as a character I like Sirius' much more than Remus'.

Julie:
I was under the impression from the text that it is very difficult to kill a
werewolf (in werewolf form). Maybe because they are so fast, or for some other
reason. In any case, Snape didn't seem prepared at all, and James seemed to
think Snape was in mortal danger even though he knows Snape is well-versed in
Dark Arts and no slouch at spells. Why would James think that if he knew Snape
could easily defend himself by killing the werewolf? (Yes, he could have gone
just thinking Remus was in danger of being killed, but that is not what the text
says, as it is repeated by several different people that James went to the Shack
to save Snape specifically, with no implication that Lupin's life was in any
danger at that time.)

Alla:

I do not think James knew. He did not hear Snape's conversation with Lily, right? If Snape went there to kill or catch Remus, why would James knew that and of course there would be no implication that Remus' life was in danger, after all I decided Snape knew after reading his conversation with Lily and Snape loving Lily was supposed to be a big plot revelation, right


.> Pippin:
> Aside from what Sirius told him, all Snape knew is that he saw Lupin going towards the willow  with Madame Pomfrey and this was apparently how Lupin managed to disappear from the school every month. Why would Snape expect this passage to lead straight  into a trap?
>
>  Remember, there are  other hidden passages  known to Filch and others. Why shouldn't Snape assume the passage led to a secret exit in Hogsmeade  as other secret passages do? And then Lupin would go  to wherever it is that the Ministry normally confines werewolves during their transformations.
>
> It was of course foolish of Snape not to consider the possibility that the passage might be a dead end with Lupin trapped inside it, but he had no particular reason to think so. Did you, Alla, prior to learning the truth from canon, ever think that the secret passage under the willow led to a dead end, or that, unlike all the others, it had been made for Lupin's exclusive use?


Alla:

I think you may have misunderstood me. I did not expect Snape necessarily to know all the details of what is there, the layout of the house and/or the passages, etc. All that I am convinced of is that Snape knew that there was a werewolf there. And to me it is more reasonable to expect that no matter where and how werewolf will be situated, it is going to be dangerous, than it will be safe as a tamed dog and will lick Snape because it will be so happy to see him. To answer your question, I do not remember, I do not think I thought too much about it, till I read what it really was in PoA, but I do not remember.

If I know that I go to a location where say cobra is living nearby, (thinking of cobra which temporarily run away from Bronx zoo couple or so months ago lol), I do not expect that cobra will be constrained, tamed, and happy to see me, I expect that she has a pretty good chance to bite me and kill me. And if I ever decide to entertain such foolishness, you bet I will go very prepared to visit her.

>
>
> Alla:
>
> > And same thing here for me. Why would we assume that Snape thought something less reasonable and logical before he went there, especially since we know that he actually *thought* about what was down there, before he went.
>
> Pippin:
> I  like the idea that Snape had a pretty good idea of what Lupin was and Sirius had doped that out. It makes for a much better joke: instead of  "Naiveidiot!Snape goes heedlessly into a werewolf's den", we have "Toosmartforhisowngood!Snape finds out his suspicions about Lupin are true in the worst possible way." Even I can see why Sirius would find that just too funny, so funny that he hardly thought about what was going to happen next.

Alla:

Absolutely.

>
> Alla:
> > And same thing with Sirius "allowed" Snape to go to his likely death. Sirius did not *allow* or *disallow* Snape to do anything in my opinion. Sirius gave Snape's information, which *if and only if* Snape will use it, may lead to his likely death and for that I hold Sirius responsible, absolutely, for that and for forcing Remus to participate in it, which to me was ten times more criminal and irresponsible, because Remus' choice was taken away from him.
>
> Pippin:
> Agreed, Snape is responsible for his own choice to enter the tunnel. But it was not an *informed* choice, and I hold Sirius responsible for that.

Alla:

Sure, I can agree that it was not a fully informed choice, absolutely. I think that he have had enough information to be prepared for danger (werewolf), but he certainly did not have it from Sirius and Sirius did not inform him fully. As long as we agree that Sirius did not do anything to force Snape to go in there, I have nothing to argue with.

Alla:
> As matters turned out, Lupin had nothing to complain about. It must have felt like a glorious reprieve. It had seemed like the Marauder adventures must come to an end, and now, instead, Snape is silenced and caught in a Catch-22: any proof he finds that the Marauders are out after hours will also be proof that Snape was out to gather it, and he will be expelled right along with them.


Alla:

Well, as matters turned out Snape have had nothing to complain about either. He is alive. I meant that if matters turned out differently with Snape bitten and/or dead, Remus would have been likely dead too.


.> Pippin:
> We know that AK doesn't kill everything alive in the Potterverse. It won't kill a phoenix, for example. Fawkes only reverts to his juvenile form.  So it is possible that other magical creatures have evolved defenses also.
<SNIPS other examples?
>.> But suppose AK would kill a werewolf. That would mean a werewolf is no harder for a wizard to kill  than a true wolf, and that wouldn't make sense at all, especially with all the emphasis placed on teaching people how to distinguish one from the other.
>
> Certainly Borgin, who knows all about dark magic, doesn't think he has anything that would protect him from Greyback. We don't know if the homorphous charm Lockhart claimed to have used against the Wagga Wagga werewolf actually worked either. Probably not, IMO.  I think in that case, Lockhart stole the story of another pretender.
>
> Finally, Sirius was protective towards Lupin. I can't imagine he  would  have directed Snape into the tunnel if he thought  Lupin would be attacked.
>
> It occurs to me that the Marauders were in an excellent position to find out which, if any, non-lethal defenses against werewolves might actually work. But they never found anything that worked better than the Animagus spell.
.


Alla:

Thank you for the excellent examples, but it does not say anywhere that werewolves are actually immune to Avada, right? It is possible, sure, but it is not spelled out, right? I mean phoenixes are special, always had been special as being reborned in general mythology. Silver bullets will do it to werewolves in regular folklore, yes? I mean JKR played with folklore and did not make her creatures completely similar of course, but werewolves contrary to phoenixes are not immortal in folklore. As to Sirius' being protective of Lupin, I hoped so, but somehow Prank makes me scratch my head and wonder. Maybe he was not thinking because he was drunk for days before and decided it under influence? I am joking of course, but I mean it quite seriously, teenage boy or not, love Sirius as I do, and I love him dearly, if I were in Remus' place, there would have been no turning back. Friendships have been ruined over less than one friend putting another friend in the position when he could have possibly made somebody a werewolfie, or kill him. As I said above, this does truly boggles my mind, how fast Remus forgave him. There had been a long time I have reread the books besides chapter discussions actually, so didn't JKR actually said that werewolves do not kill with their bites? or have I dreamt it up?