Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 190517



> > Alla:
> > 
> > Expected, wanted, REALLY hoped, is not the same as *knew* that he would go though. Again, to me what Sirius wanted out of is completely irrelevant. I mean it is quite obvious that nothing GOOD would have come out of it, isn't it? Still Snape went because he wanted to.
>

Pippin:
In colloquial English, it is the same. We can say that Draco knew Harry would show up for the duel, not because Draco is prescient or because Harry was coerced, but because Draco knows Harry has a reputation to uphold and backing out of a duel would be unthinkable. 

In the same way, Sirius doesn't know in any prescient sense that Snape will take the bait and doesn't do anything that would compel Snape to take it. But he knows that Snape will take it, because he knows Snape.

The fisherman does not know, in the sense of believing with absolute certainty, that a fish will bite on his hook. But he knows, in the sense of grasping something with a thorough understanding, that a fish will bite on his hook. 

Steve E:
Steve E replies: I agree completely w/ Alla here. Didn't Dumbledore say to
Harry in essence that we are defined by the choices we make? There is a well
known triangle of human interaction known in therapeutic evaluation that
consists of a person acting either as a Rescuer, a Victom, and/or a Persecutor.
Those who defend Snape and make him out to be a victom in this situation at
least, and consequently make Sirius out to be a Persecutor, do so subjectively
because of personal reader bias for and against certain characters. When you
look at this scenario with a bit more objectivety, we can clearly see that Snape
did have a choice in the matter and wasn't forced in any magical or non magical
ways to act as he did. Sirius's motives weren't completely innocent either, but
he doesn't qualify for being a Persecutor either. He didn't intentionally
commit an act of malice knowing full well the outcome of that act. 


Pippin:
I don't claim to be objective about the characters. But Sirius's malice towards Snape is unquestionable. And the outcome, while not inevitable, was certainly predictable by any reasonable person.  As Lupin says, "Of course Snape tried it."

It is  well-known and extensively studied that certain hazardous attitudes contribute to poor decision-making. They are: impulsivity, macho (taking risks in order to prove yourself), invulnerability, anti-authority and resignation. People with these attitudes will put themselves in hazardous situations even though they are well-informed about the risks. 

Of those five, it is canon that Snape was impulsive, desperate to make an impression, and had enough disregard for rules to learn more curses than a respectable Slytherin ought to know.

Of course Snape could have said to himself, "wait a minute, I need to take some time and think this through. I don't need to do something dangerous to prove myself. The rules are made for my protection." But Sirius knew him  well enough to know that he wouldn't. 


Snape wouldn't have had a lot of time to think it over -- presumably he saw Lupin and Pomfrey going to the willow,  immediately confronted Sirius with what he'd seen, and knew he'd have to act on Sirius's information that night, before Sirius could warn Lupin or Madame Pomfrey that the willow  secret was blown. 

Of course young Sirius shared some of the same qualities that got Snape into trouble. He also was impulsive and disregarding of rules, and took risks to prove himself. He also had, more than Snape, a teenager's sense of invulnerability. 

I agree that both Sirius and Snape lacked an adult's capacity to assess the consequences of their actions.  That's why Dumbledore gave them both another chance. But that doesn't mean that Sirius's actions were right in any moral sense, or that he didn't act out of a desire to harm Snape. 

Pippin