Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 190557



> > Alla:
> > 
> 
>  Cedric wanted to win in the Tournament, which he wanted to do in the most noble way. Snape wanted to do *something* to his fellow student, can we agree on that? 
> 
> Pippin:
>  Snape wanted  to find out what Lupin and his friends were  up to.  He suspected it was something very bad. Who but Dark Wizards would want a werewolf for a friend?
> 
>   He wanted to prove the Marauders weren't as great as everyone thought. But he didn't think he was going to have to *frame* them. He wouldn't think he needed to. James and Sirius were habitual trouble-makers -- if they were sneaking around, it wasn't to do something *nice*. 
> 
>  I am sure Snape did not think much beyond the fact that if he could show that Lupin and his friends were   doing something wrong, they would be stopped and punished. That is what is supposed to happen, isn't it? Is that a selfish, evil thing to want? 

Alla:

Yes, to me, it is a selfish and evil thing to want. Not about James and Sirius, that was just selfish thing to want for me, and yes, same I think when they want to do that. No, evil comes in my phrasing when I think of what he wanted to do to Remus. Of course I think Snape did think about it and a lot, and had a hunch that Remus would be punished much more severely than anybody else, but again we cannot know for sure. Oh and werewolf or not, he is still a fellow student, but I am glad we at least agree that he knew who Remus was. Sorry, not buying that he was thinking that Remus was just be stopped and punished.


> 
> Alla:
>  Mind you he knew that Remus is officially accepted in school, he saw Remus going there with Madame Pomfrey, so he knew adults are aware of whatever is happening in the Shack. 
> 
> Pippin:
> First of all, though canon is maddeningly inconsistent on the technicalities of Lupin's condition, we know from PoA that it  caused him to miss classes and meals. That Lupin's absences were sanctioned by the school would have been clear long before Snape saw Lupin going to the willow. By his own admission, Lupin told all kinds of stories to explain his absences. Snape would soon realize that Lupin was lying and that for some reason the adults were letting him get away with it. 
> 
> I suppose that Snape, like Harry in HPB, was tired of being treated like a conspiracy theorist for voicing the inconvenient truth.

Alla:

Again, my point is that it was none of Snape's business, whether he was tired like Harry or not. His fellow student has a business he has to dissappear to periodically, which is sanctioned by adults quite obviously. Oh and since the comparisons between Harry wondering where he is not supposed to go and Snape constantly come up, may I just say that sure, they may both wonder where they were not supposed to put their noses in, only I am still to see Snape wondering where he was not supposed to in order to save somebody. That to me one of the crucial differences between him and Harry. Does Harry wonder around for selfish reasons of wanting to have fun? Sure he does, so yeah that is a small similarity between him and Snape as a teenager. Only thats not all he does. 

Pippin:   
> Let's not forget Snape was still friends with Lily at this point. She might not feel Lupin was any danger to her, just as Hermione and Ron didn't feel threatened by Draco.  But I doubt Snape shared that opinion. He could have been only thinking of himself, but it's just as likely that he was thinking of her too.

Alla:

Yes, both inferences are equally likely.
 
Pippin: 
> That's not to say Snape didn't expect to win anything for himself or didn't know he was breaking rules. But so did Cedric. He was going to get fame, glory and 500 golden galleons, (and Cho was going to be *so* impressed!).  And he knew full well that no one was going to be playing exactly by the rules, cheating being an historically accepted part of the game.  
> 
> No one in canon acts with purely selfish motives except Voldemort, and no one in canon is ever purely unselfish, not even Harry.
> 
> So I don't buy that Snape had only evil selfish motives for accepting Sirius's challenge, or that Cedric had only pure ones for being in the Tournament. 


Alla:

Yes, no one in canon is purely unselfish even Harry. Of course Harry as adult names his son after Snape, Snape adult torments the innocent child whom he already harmed, so to me at least the adults version of characters are uncomparable. And actually even their teenage versions, besides wondering in forbidden places sometimes.

 But again, no matter how much we are wondering from my original point and comparing Snape's choices with other characters, my point is that to go to Shack was Snape's choice, choice which he was itching to exercise way before Sirius had his "bright" idea to share the information.


Pippin: 
> Second, there seems to be some confusion about what Snape knew and when he knew it. 
> 
> He knew what Lupin was by the time of his conversation about him with Lily, because that was *after* The Prank.  What we see in this scene, IMO, is Snape's debut performance as an actor. The "official" story seems to be that he got into the tunnel on his own, and was rescued by James from something so  dangerous that  he couldn't be told what it was. Snape blurts out angrily that James didn't do anything noble by saving him, that he was trying to keep himself and his friends out of trouble,  but he quickly realizes that he can't tell Lily why he thinks so. <SNIP the rest of the argument>

Alla:

Sorry, I disagree, not with the summary, but with intepretation, to me this conversation shows quite clearly that he knew before the Prank who Lupin was.

> Pippin:
> Every death in the books is by violence, is it not? No, wait, Aragog dies of old age. But for the most part JKR is telling a story about a time when people  really shouldn't expect to die in bed. 
> 
>  My point is the books advocate  that we   all choose how to meet death. We will have to face it sooner or later, and it's better to die for a reason than to run away, or be tricked into facing mortal peril before you are ready. 
> 
> On the first reading, it seems that Snape is terrified out of his wits that Voldemort has decided to kill him. And then you realize, once you see  that he had complete and superb control of himself all along, that he was only afraid for his mission. And that he could have saved himself if he chose. All he had to say was, "Master, Dumbledore was wandless when he died! Ask the Carrows! Ask Draco -- I didn't defeat his wand!"


Alla:

I did not say that Snape was terrified when he dies, I am sure he met death bravely, I am only saying that I find the manner of his death to be the death he seemed to want all those years and was so upset that James dared to take him away from it.

Bite? Shrieking shack? If Nagini at least bite him elsewhere, I could consider some other intepretation, but together it tells me that JKR at least considered the carma here.

IMO,

Alla