Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban

[nikkalmati]

No: HPFGUIDX 190568



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
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> snip>
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> > Pippin:
> >  Snape wanted  to find out what Lupin and his friends were  up to.  He suspected it was something very bad. Who but Dark Wizards would want a werewolf for a friend?
> > 
> >   He wanted to prove the Marauders weren't as great as everyone thought. But he didn't think he was going to have to *frame* them. He wouldn't think he needed to. James and Sirius were habitual trouble-makers -- if they were sneaking around, it wasn't to do something *nice*. 
> > 
> >  I am sure Snape did not think much beyond the fact that if he could show that Lupin and his friends were   doing something wrong, they would be stopped and punished. That is what is supposed to happen, isn't it? Is that a selfish, evil thing to want? 
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> Alla:
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> Yes, to me, it is a selfish and evil thing to want. Not about James and Sirius, that was just selfish thing to want for me, and yes, same I think when they want to do that. No, evil comes in my phrasing when I think of what he wanted to do to Remus. Of course I think Snape did think about it and a lot, and had a hunch that Remus would be punished much more severely than anybody else, but again we cannot know for sure. Oh and werewolf or not, he is still a fellow student, but I am glad we at least agree that he knew who Remus was. Sorry, not buying that he was thinking that Remus was just be stopped and punished.
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>snip> 
> > 
> Alla:
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> Again, my point is that it was none of Snape's business, whether he was tired like Harry or not. His fellow student has a business he has to dissappear to periodically, which is sanctioned by adults quite obviously. Oh and since the comparisons between Harry wondering where he is not supposed to go and Snape constantly come up, may I just say that sure, they may both wonder where they were not supposed to put their noses in, only I am still to see Snape wondering where he was not supposed to in order to save somebody. That to me one of the crucial differences between him and Harry. Does Harry wonder around for selfish reasons of wanting to have fun? Sure he does, so yeah that is a small similarity between him and Snape as a teenager. Only thats not all he does. 
> 
> Pippin:   
> > Let's not forget Snape was still friends with Lily at this point. She might not feel Lupin was any danger to her, just as Hermione and Ron didn't feel threatened by Draco.  But I doubt Snape shared that opinion. He could have been only thinking of himself, but it's just as likely that he was thinking of her too.
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> Alla:
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> Yes, both inferences are equally likely.
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snip>
> Pippin

> > So I don't buy that Snape had only evil selfish motives for accepting Sirius's challenge, or that Cedric had only pure ones for being in the Tournament. 
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> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, no one in canon is purely unselfish even Harry. Of course Harry as adult names his son after Snape, Snape adult torments the innocent child whom he already harmed, so to me at least the adults version of characters are uncomparable. And actually even their teenage versions, besides wondering in forbidden places sometimes.
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>  But again, no matter how much we are wondering from my original point and comparing Snape's choices with other characters, my point is that to go to Shack was Snape's choice, choice which he was itching to exercise way before Sirius had his "bright" idea to share the information.
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> 
>snip

> > Pippin:
> > Every death in the books is by violence, is it not? No, wait, snip>> > On the first reading, it seems that Snape is terrified out of his wits that Voldemort has decided to kill him. And then you realize, once you see  that he had complete and superb control of himself all along, that he was only afraid for his mission. And that he could have saved himself if he chose. All he had to say was, "Master, Dumbledore was wandless when he died! Ask the Carrows! Ask Draco -- I didn't defeat his wand!"
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I did not say that Snape was terrified when he dies, I am sure he met death bravely, I am only saying that I find the manner of his death to be the death he seemed to want all those years and was so upset that James dared to take him away from it.
> 
> Bite? Shrieking shack? If Nagini at least bite him elsewhere, I could consider some other intepretation, but together it tells me that JKR at least considered the carma here.
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>
Nikkalmati

Several interesting ideas are presented by this discussion.  I am sure there is a reason why there are three scenes in the Shack.  I agree the Shack is significant as thhe place of Snape's death.  Does Alla suggest he wanted to die there, or is that sarcasm?  Certainly James prevented his death the first time so we see a kind of closing of the circle when it comes back around.  Alla admits the first time Sirius may have wanted Snape to be killed - are you ok with that?  Yet it is not ok if Snape wanted to kill Lupin (which I do not believe BTW). At this point in time Snape is as innocent as Lupin, isn't he?  He is the victim of unprovoked attacks, isn't he?  We also know Lupin and the Marauders were acting in a dangerous manner and breaking the rules set out by DD just for fun.  Shouldn't that have been stopped?   

The second time in the Shack Snape rushes in to "get" Black and Lupin and to save the Trio.  There is a werewolf there and there is a conspiracy, which gets revealed.  This time DD cannot keep Snape from revealing Lupin, but Lupin himself says he must go because he has endangered the students.  Strange, Black broke out of Azkaban to protect Harry - something Snape has been doing all along.

The third time in the Shack Snape does die by a monster, but he sacrifices himself.  He is concerned only for his mission.  "Let me get the boy" he says repeatedly.  As Pippin says, he could have saved himself.  He concealed his role and played his part to the end and then rouses himself to deliver his message with his last breath.  I think it is the arc of the story which demands his death -- not karmic punishment for not being nice to Harry. 

 In truth, I expected Harry to rush in and save Snape like Snape had done before for Harry.  I am not sure why Harry does not.  LV is there with only Snape whom he tried to kill.  Harry has his friends.  Harry thinks he must kill LV and Nagini both.  Here is his chance.  Of course, there is one Horcrux unaccounted for, but does Harry really think he can find it befoe LV takes the school over?  Why does he let LV get the Wand when it could bring LV superior powers?  He doesn't know yet that Snape is not the wand's Master and that he himself is.   It always seemed Jo had built up to a scene in which Harry saves Snape and then just let it go.  Is Harry generous enough to same Snape from LV despite their past history? Yes, I think he is.
> 
> Nikkalmati
>