Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 190659


.> Pippin:
> But that's the beauty of a double bind from the instigator's point of view. It doesn't matter whether the victim would like to comply with the demand or not, because it is impossible and the victim is not in a position to negotiate for better terms. 
> 
> The wikipedia example is a boss who gives you an assignment but doesn't give you enough time to do it. If you are in a position where you cannot communicate this contradiction to your boss, for example because you know he'll fire you for asking questions, that's a double bind.  
> 
> Snape has been given a demand: ie, enter the willow, but his social superior Sirius is withholding critical information which makes the task impossible; he knows exactly what's down there and Snape does not. Snape knows it would be useless to ask Sirius for this information and humiliating to refuse the demand. That's a double bind. 


Alla:

Sorry, not in the book I have read. In the book I have read Sirius did not give Snape any *demands*. He is absolutely withholding crucial information about what is in the Shack. However, in the book I have read he was not behaving like Draco in POA exactly, he was not issuing Snape any challenge - come to Shack or else. He gave Snape information that he wanted, but the incomplete one. By the way, I was really worried that this will be one of the pieces that we will find out eventually. And of course there is that part where we are disagreeing on what Snape knew - specifically I think his conversation with Lily shows that he suspected or knew that Lupin is a werewolf. 

Pippin: 
> That Snape himself would have  liked to enter the willow and find out what's down there stopped being relevant when Sirius introduced a consequence for not acting on the information he gave Snape. The consequence, like the demand itself,  is implied rather than stated; Snape will be humiliated as a coward.

Alla:

Again, not in the book I read. It is again to me easily absolves Snape of responsibility for his action. I mean, first of all where is canon that Sirius implied that he will be thought of as coward if he did not go?  And no matter what, I thought that Snape knew that Sirius did not have a high opinion of him way before Shrieking Shack and vice versa  and he did not really care?
> 
> Alla:
>  Most importantly because I do not see an evidence that Sirius would have told the whole school. I mean, he would tell the whole school about Lupin and who he is? 
> 
> Pippin:
> No, the Marauders are just going to tell everyone what a coward Snape is, make Whomping Willow noises whenever Snape goes past, and generally behave the way Draco behaved to Harry about the dementors. Maybe Sirius will throw in a few werewolf howls for good measure, after all, everyone thinks Snape's theory about Lupin is a joke. (I can sympathize with this, LOL). 
> 
> And of course if the staff hears there's a  rumor about a werewolf being under the willow, Lupin's hiding place will be changed, and there won't be anything for Snape to discover anymore. He can swear all he likes that he saw Lupin going out there, and no one will believe him. 


Alla:

Marauders are just going to tell everyone what a coward Snape is, Snape is going to hit them with couple of Sectusemptras or do other stuff to them. That was happening it already, was it not? What exactly is present in this scene that *makes* it different? Besides to me Snape having a knowledge or suspicions of what Lupin is of course and wanting to confirm it for a long time.

Sorry, I do not see this scene being a direct analogy to Draco and Harry duel where I would still not give Harry a pass, but there it was - direct challenge to an eleven year old "honor". Where was the challenge there?


'Snape, go there or else'? Sorry, Snape to me was the total master of his destiny here, he just did not have to go as far as I am concerned.