Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 190702



.> Pippin:
> Have you forgotten that Snape is a potions genius? If what he wanted was the physical experience of Lily in bed, all he needed was a few strands of her hair, some polyjuice potion, and a partner. In fact, considering his acting ability,   with a bit of nerve, a few strands of *James*'s hair, and maybe a dose of felix for luck along with the pjp, he could enjoy Lily herself. Students of British legend will remember that King Arthur himself was conceived by a similar ruse.
> 
> But that's not what Snape wanted, IMO. What he wanted was for Lily to prefer him to James. I'm not denying that he had sexual feelings for her. But canon does not show us his feelings as  degraded. I do not think you will find much support for the idea that the silver doe is the creation of a man who fancied himself a rapist. 
> 
> Canon does show us that sexual love can unseat the moral compass. But it also shows us that other kinds of love have the same power.

Alla:

Of course it was not my intention to argue speculatively or strictly canon based that Snape only wanted experience of Lily in bed. Of course he wanted her to prefer him to James, however IMO it transformed into adult Snape just *wanting* her and no matter what.

And just to clarify, if canon indeed tells us that sexual love can unseat the moral compass, that is surely not my intention to express any sort of agreement with it. I argue that it is *Snape* who had his moral compass deeply unseated for a very long time, untill he finally learned under Dumbledore's slavery erm... I mean tutelage that all lives are worth saving, sexual love in itself has nothing to do with it and surely is not the lower form of love or anything like that.

Sorry, Pippin, it is not directed at you, but I get very impatient at the thought that such argument can even be associated with myself, so really want to be very clear.

But come to think of it, you can be right, I am thinking of Dumbledore here, but then, if that was JKR's intent, well, no, just no.

And Oy, silver doe maybe the proof of that too. Shakes head. But yes I am not denying that Snape finally learned that all lives are worth saving. 


Pippin:
<SNIP> 
>.> I don't believe Snape ever thought of Lily as being a lower species.  I think young Snape truly believed  his  feelings about her were separate from his feelings about Muggleborns in general. That, maybe, is a danger of being able to compartmentalize one's feelings as an occlumens is able to do. 
> 
> Keep in mind that when he used the M word to Lily he was sixteen years old, exhausted (from the exam) and being subjected to emotional and physical assault. I would not like to be held responsible for anything I said under such circumstances, would you?  It would be all too easy for Snape to believe, despite his slip, that it was still possible to have one set of feelings about Lily and another about her race. <SNIP>

Alla:

We have to agree to disagree here and I may have even gave Snape a little lattitude  if I thought that he spit that word by accident.

But he joined the gang of terrorists who considered Muggleborns lower species of life and to me that shows that yes indeed this was his mindset starting from the time poor Lily asked him that question.


Pippin:
> Of course he couldn't do it. Lily was right about that. But Snape didn't understand that  until much later. We know he finally did understand it  because he stops Phineas Nigellus from using the M word about Hermione, whom Snape does not care for personally one bit.

Alla:

True, I hope he did. Or he may have just again did what you claimed he did when he was a kid - comparmentalized his feelings only now he was remembering it with regret because he was thinking of Lily when he did that.
 
Pippin: 
> I think, though Snape obviously accepted and honored Lily's decision to die for Harry,  he  thought it would have done Lily no harm if Harry and James had died instead. He was unable to see James as anything but a conceited bully, and how could James's son be anything but the same? After all, even Harry wonders how the James he saw in the Pensieve could possibly have won Lily's love and wonders if she was forced into marrying him. Far from thinking he would put Lily under the Imperius curse, Snape was probably persuading himself that  James had done it. 


Alla:

I hear you only what you are describing makes me feel even more disgust for Snape. I thought he accepted her decision that she chose James and resolved not to bother her no more?

And what did the baby do to him? Harry should be punished some more for Snape delivering him and his parents to Voldemort?