Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 190430



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
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> PoA Chapter 18: Moony,Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs
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> Questions
> 1. Lupin says the Marauders' map never lies, could this be a 
> support for the argument that the map does not have dark magic
> in it? Do you agree or disagree with it?
> 

Steve:

1.) To me that is like asking if Caller ID or you GPS is capable of willful lying? It just doesn't make sense, and it goes against the purpose of the device. 

The Map exists to show people in Hogwart's Castle and on Grounds to the extent that the locations were known by the creators of the Map. How and why would it do anything else?

It is not like the Map is or is capable of plotting and scheming, and conceiving of the concept of deception. It simply reports the facts, though under the right circumstances, it does so with a degree of sarcasm and humor, though those are special circumstances and unrelated to reporting the location of people within Hogwarts.

Here is a slightly unrelated but still interesting aspect to consider. For the Map to know the presence and location of people within Hogwarts, the spell or enchantment can't just be on the Map, it must also be on Hogwarts itself. 

In a sense, there must be a recording or detecting enchantment and a receiving or displaying enchantment. The enchanted Maps is pretty impressive, but if you consider the possibility that they also cast a spell on the entire castle and grounds, that makes that bit of magic even more powerful and impressive. Hogwarts has many defenses and protections of its own, and as such, does not allow spells to be cast upon it easily. 


> 2. Did you believed Lupin and Black (if you remember of course)
> when you were reading the book for the first time that Peter was
> in the room?
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Steve:

2.) I'm not the kind of person who reads a book and comes to a puzzling part and says, 'That can't be!' Now I certainly might ask 'how that can be', but the only thing you can do is keep reading and find out how the situation resolves itself.

And author does not make such a bold and surprising pronouncement without good reason, and the only way to know what the reason is, is to keep reading. So, if you keep reading, you will either find out how and why they are wrong, or how and why they are right, but in my mind there is nothing to question or doubt. 


> 3a. ...
> I absolutely refuse to place all the blame for the prank on 
> Sirius. I happen to feel that just as Sirius had no business
> telling Snape about Remus' secret, Snape had no business ...
> going to the Shack .... 

Steve:

I've taken this same position many times. Yes, there is plenty of blame to go around. But the list of rules and the degree of common sense that Snape broke when he pursued Sirius's information was astounding. 

Snape suspected that Lupin was a werewolf, why would any sane person risk trapping themselves in a confined space with an enraged werewolf? 

Perhaps he thought he would just have a peak for proof then he would report Lupin's secret and get him kicked out of school. But, that was shear fantasy in the extreme. Again to risk trapping yourself in such a confined space as the Shack or the Tunnel with an enraged werewolf, is madness in the extreme. And I have no doubt that the minute Lupin laid eyes on Snape, he would have indeed been an ENRAGED werewolf. 

Snape or Lupin or BOTH could have very easily have been killed. 


>3.b)However as the very same reader, I am still racking my brain
> what the hell was Sirius thinking would have happened to Remus
> if he were to bite Snape, or if Snape would simply uncover his 
> secret. So what was he thinking? Was he thinking anything?
> 

Steve:

3b.) Like most impetuous short sighted self-involved teens, Sirius simply was not thinking, at least not thinking beyond goading Snape into action. 

Snape being bitten by Lupin is probably the least that could have happened. I have not doubt that Snape was capable of killing Lupin if force, and equally that Lupin was capable of killing Snape if provoked. 

Like so many teenage pranks, this one had true life and death consequences, and I think that is what James saw when he found out. His goal wasn't to stop the 'Prank', but to keep Snape and Lupin from killing each other. 


> 4. When Lupin was telling his interpretation of the Prank, were
> you curious whether "
" after him saying that Snape was jealous
> of James' Quidditch talent meant that there was more to the story?
> 

Steve:

4.) I think what we have is the Popular Jock vs the Emo/Goth kid, a story which plays out in high schools across the country every day. 

James is full of his own ego and glory, and Snape probably has more academic achievements, which, oddly, are not held is very high regard among students. 

Then we know that even before James and Lily got together, Snape was well aware that James had 'a thing' for Lily. I think that pushed every button Snape had. He simply could not stand the thought of egoistical James with his sweet Lily. 

Yet we also see, eventually, that this is also the time when Snape is making choices of his own, choices that are pushing Lily farther and farther away for him. 

I think Snape is seething with resentment that Lily could see anything in a self-important falsely glorified ego maniacal person like James over himself. And I think that resentment is clouding his judgment, as it often does with kids this age. 

And, I do think we need to keep in mind "kids this age". These are young impetuous short sighted impulsive ego driven hormone enrage teenagers, who, from my experience, are acting like teenagers do.  

> 5. Were you shocked to see Snape appear in the room?
> 

Steve:

5.) Again, this has to do with how I read stories. I'm just along for the ride. So, I don't question as I go. 

Yes, I was surprised, but also not surprised. JKR constantly puts Harry in situation that compoundingly get worse. Just when you think the scene could not get more complicated, Snape appears, then just when you think it could not get worse, the Kids attack Snape. And on and on it goes until you can't imagine how Harry can possible get out of the situation, which, of course, he always manages to do. 

So, shocked ...ummm... probably not, but as a reader, certainly thrilled by the twisting plot and changing complicating events. 

I mean, consider everything that is revealed in this scene? Lupin shows up, Sirius shows up, Snape shows up, Lupin is a werewolf, Peter is a rat, Sirus is innocent, etc...; it is like shock overload. It is one stunning startling revelation after another. In hindsight, it is hard to imagine that a story plot could get this complicated. 


> 6. To what extent Snape's belief Lupin was involved in the 
> Prank was rational?
> 

Steve:

6.)Only slightly so, I think Snape is filled with a cascade of emotions that never resolve themselves, envy, jealousy, rage, anger, resentment, humiliation, disgrace, shame, and on and on. I think such intense emotions can only be controlled, and oddly continued, but rationalization. Place the blame anywhere where it feels good, where it vindicates you, eases your conscience, and places the blame on others.

I think many of us still carry resentment such as this left over from our high school years, though most of us have filed it away in it rightful place. But Snape carries resentment, anger, fear, and most significantly shame from the past that he simply can never let go of, and I think that continually clouds his judgment, both in the past and in the present.  


Steve:

Lastly, I will point out my comment above about the likelihood that for the Map to work, a companion enchantment must have also been cast onto Howarts itself. That implies magical power in the extreme.

Steve/bboyminn