Occlumency VERY VERY LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 191724



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > > Shaun:
> > > 
> > > Harry Potter *is* the chosen one. Dumbledore didn't make him so. He 
> > > *has* to put all his hopes in the fact that Harry will be willing to die 
> > > to get rid of Voldemort because that is what the prophecy requires. And 
> > > what he actually does in the long term is equip Harry to fulfil the 
> > > prophecy in a way that does allow him to live. 
> > 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Not in my opinion, especially due to his wavering stance on how much faith he put in prophecies. How many percents of those prophecies in the Department of mysteries came true? Dumbledore cant seem to pick whether prophecy is a relevant tool, or not, but even if the prophecy is relevant and 100% reliable, it does not say in the prophecy that Harry is not allowed to be helped, it does not say that others in meantime cannot hunt Voldemort, raise a war on him in order to very least kill his Death eaters.
> 
> Pippin:
> That is what the Order does -- although it does not believe in killing Death Eaters unless they refuse to surrender. But they have no reliable way to tell who is a Death Eater and who isn't.  Only Voldemort knows who they all are. Even if DE's are caught in the act, they can still get off by claiming to have been under the Imperius curse. 
> 
> It was Voldemort who declared war on Harry by deciding that he was the prophecy child. After that what Dumbledore did or didn't believe about the prophecy was irrelevant. Voldemort would never stop trying to destroy Harry.
> 
>  Harry would have no chance to survive unless Voldemort was destroyed, Voldemort could not be destroyed without destroying the horcrux(es) and, by accidentally allowing a piece of his soul to be embedded in Harry, Voldemort made Harry himself potentially his most powerful enemy. 
>  
> As Eowyn says in LOTR, "It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two" 

Alla:

Whether Dumbledore believes in Prophecies or not, was *extremely* relevant though to my reply to Shawn. I understood Shawn to argue that Dumbledore had to put all his eggs in Harry's basket, which was something I initially objected to, and Shawn said that Dumbledore had no choice but to do that because prophecy required him to do so. So if Dumbledore does not believe in prophecy, what prophecy requires him to do is irrelevant in my opinion and what matters is what Dumbledore decides to do. Now if you decide to argue that Dumbledore needed to act in response to Voldemort, sure, I have no problem with that, what I disagree with is that Dumbledore needed to act a *certain way*, specifically put all his hopes in Harry's basket and leave him without any help and protection besides his two friends in that idiotic quest IMO.

> 
> 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > And I would say that he is not only committed to protect Harry Potter's life but also committed to humiliate, mock and abuse him every second of that life.
> 
> Pippin:
> Harry has potions two or three times a week, plus various detentions or other lessons. That's hardly every second of his life. And Snape could not have known when he made his promise that he would still be teaching potions at Hogwarts when Harry arrived ten years later. Snape is clearly not thinking about the prospects of making Harry miserable as he makes his promise. He's concerned about how it would look and feel to have anyone know that he's committed himself to saving James Potter's son. 

Alla:

Sure thing, I would be happy to rephrase and say that Snape made Harry miserable a lot of the time. I do not know whether Snape *planned* to still teach potions at the time Harry will arrive to Hogwarts, but it was quite clear to me that when he gave that promise he did not have any good feelings towards Harry already. No, I am not projecting what I know about Snape's behavior towards Harry later on, the reason I am saying it is very simple and very factual, Snape did not care whether Harry lived or died when he came to ask Dumbledore for Lily's life and yes,based on that alone I would expect him to refuse that task. But of course I blame Dumbledore too and I blame him even more for organizing it.



> 
> 
> Alla:
>  I do not consider protecting his life in that situation (as I see it of course) an action worthy of respect. I would considered Snape much worthy of respect if he refused Dumbledore and thus forced Dumbledore to choose another protector. 
> 
> Pippin:
>   Why would Snape think there was someone else who could do what Snape can do to protect Harry? If there was a person of comparable courage,  power and loyalty who had a more pleasant disposition, don't you think Dumbledore would have asked him instead? It's not like Snape and Dumbledore loved working together so much <g>

Alla:

I think Dumbledore asked who was in the vicinity at that point, frankly and of course I am sure he knew Snape was talented with Dark arts and he knew that Snape loved Lily. I do not think he cared what feelings Snape had towards Harry at all.


Pippin: 
>  Should Snape have let Harry go unprotected until someone with sufficiently lofty motives appeared to do the job? 

Alla:

I think Snape should have known that he does not have at least a mindset to do the job, even if he has skills. I know you think Snape's mindset is unimportant, as long as he did the job, but we just have to agree to disagree on that.


> Alla:
>  No, I think Dumbledore wanted to do everything in his power that Harry would abused and scared and miserable after living with Dursleys and would look at Dumbledore as god and do anything Dumbledore would want him to do and would go and die because Dumbledore raised him to that. 
> 
> Pippin:
> And is there canon that Dumbledore had this in mind? 
> 
> Many children have been rescued from abusive situations. AFAIK, this does not fill them with  a desire to save the world or give their rescuers unquestioning obedience. 

Alla:

Well, there is his "not a pampered prince" speech, which tells me that he expected Harry to be abused, there is his talk to Snape to tell Harry about the plan when time arrives, for me I am not making a gigantic leap when I would argue that expecting child to be abused, setting up a "training" task for him (as I see it, based on Harry's words in PS) and sending him to death basically gives us Dumbledore's mindset which I described. But sure, the only direct canon I would cite here is "not a pampered prince" speech, I just think my conclusion here is based on canon.