[the_old_crowd] Re: Lupin quotes

[Rynne]

Pippin:
> Snape couldn't fight back effectively, because the odds were 
> uneven: two against one. I'm not sure I see the difference. It 
> wasn't a fair fight. The odds were more glaringly lopsided in the 
> Robertses case, but the principle is the same.

I don't think the principal is the same at all.  The Robertses were
utterly helpless, and despite being outnumbered, Snape was *not*.  If
Snape had been so helpless, I don't think he would have come in for as
much flak as he had from Sirius and James--they would have found it
too boring.  They weren't sadists, after all, like what I consider the
DEs to be.  Or if they were, they grew up into better people.  And
they were the *active* participants in Snape's humiliation--Lupin was
just passive.  James certainly grew up to be a better man (I'm
exempting Sirius for now, as Sirius's development into an adult seemed
to be effectively halted/delayed by Azkaban), and Remus has, after
all, had more time than James do to some growing up.

But anyway, the point is, I don't find Snape's Worst Memory to be a
scaled-down version of the Quidditch World Cup, because Snape wasn't
half as helpless as the Robertses.  And I can't stand the idea that
MWPP were just bullies picking on poor widdle Snape; aside from
painting MWPP completely as bad guys (they were human and flawed, but
not evil), it gives no credit to Snape, who I can't imagine would just
sit there and take it.  He didn't in the pensieve scene, after all! 
He hasn't for all the time that we've known him!  Snape is the sort to
have the philosophy of "If the odds aren't in your favor, bring down
the odds".  I'm sure he's done it plenty of times--he is Slytherin,
after all--and that he gave as good as he got.  Snape was no Mr
Roberts!

Pippin:
> That is what I am saying. The courage to do the right thing under 
> such circumstances is rarer than we would like to think. Neville 
> had it in PS/SS, Lily had it in the Pensieve. Two out of hundreds 
> of named characters.

So...everyone who doesn't have that courage, which you admit to as
being rarer that we would like to think, is perforce ESE?  Just
because Lupin doesn't have that quality doesn't make him a bad person,
*especially* at his age and in his situation.  I doubt WPP would ever
seriously think about this, but they *could* concievably have
blackmailed Lupin, you know.  I reread the pensieve scene, and that
part where James talks about running with a werewolf every month and
Lupin telling him to keep his voice down, and there's the thing--what
if James doesn't keep his voice down?  *Look* at the secret they hold
over him, especially when they're so careless!  I'd want to keep them
placated, if I was Remus, and it's a perfectly normal reaction.  I
don't think WPP would really hold that secret over him, or seriously
suggest that they would, but as long as Lupin thought it a
possibility...*shrugs*

There's also the degree of closeness between Remus and the other three
that was *not* present between Neville and the Trio, or Lily and
James&Sirius.  Lily hates them, so I can't see *her* having a problem
in standing up against them.  Neville had the true courage, especially
considering his personality, but he didn't know the Trio as well as
Remus knew WPP.  The Trio hadn't done anything for Neville the way
that WPP became Animagi for Remus.  Neville and Lily and Remus are all
entirely different people in entirely different situations, and I
don't see how Remus's failure to act like Lily and Neville puts him on
the path to evil.

Pippin:
> He says he never told them they were out of line. Think about 
> that and remember that Sirius eventually tried to kill Snape. 

*sigh* Until we know more about the Whomping Willow incident, I'm
withholding judgment on everything connected to it.  There's so many
different scenarios that could be imagined; I personally think that
Sirius was just impulsive and thoughtless and thought he would just
scare Snape.  Real murder never crossed his mind.  I think he thought
that Snape dead in the abstract was all right, but not in reality,
especially not if he and a friend of his were responsible and could be
punished for it.  I can't imagine that this seriously was
premeditated.

Anyway, I'm not entirely sure what your argument is here.  Are you
suggesting that it was *Remus* who suggested that Sirius send Snape to
the Shack?  Or that because Remus didn't check Sirius, Sirius thought
it was all right to send Snape to the Shack?  Clarify, please. :)
 
Pippin:
> Post-Hogwarts, Lupin  probably had more experience with the 
> Umbridge/Crouch Sr. face of the wizarding government than with 
> the Arthur Weasley/Amelia Bones side. Outside of Hogwarts, 
> Voldemort seems to be the only adult wizard we've met so far 
> who even pretends to  take the battle for non-human rights 
> seriously. It's not much of a choice, is it? 
> 
> 
> Pippin 

You're right, it's not much of a choice--but I don't think Lupin would
choose the way you think he would.  Remus isn't stupid.  He knows that
Voldemort is against Muggles and Muggleborn, and that he tortures and
kills them and enjoys it, and Muggles and Muggleborn are all at least
fully human!  It doesn't seem a gigantic leap in logic that Voldemort
doesn't really care for nonhuman rights either, and in the typical
wizarding world way thinks them beneath him, and I'm sure Remus would
consider that.

Cost/benefit analysis of going over to Voldemort, since that's what
his choice seems to be:

Benefit: (perceived) safety from Voldemort's purges, and that's
assuming Lupin thinks Voldemort treats his followers well and wouldn't
kill them--which, by the way, he'll definitely know isn't true thanks
to Regulus Black (who, I imagine, is definitely not the first Death
Eater to be killed by his own fellows).  The (possible) promise that
Voldemort will make things better for nonhumans.

Cost: the respect, friendship, love, and good will of his family
(assuming they are living), his friends, and his mentors at Hogwarts,
including Dumbledore, who we know Remus really admires.  Then there
are his friends, who he was afraid enough of losing to not stop them
during such scenes as what happened in the pensieve, and who we know
are against Dark wizards (James and Sirius at least), and who became
Animagi for him and clearly love him?

Completely aside from that, I don't think Remus is so selfish that he
would make a decision that big based entirely on his own welfare,
especially when he welfare cannot be assured should he turn to
Voldemort.  However badly some members of the wizarding government
treat him, I think he'd prefer to stay with the Light.

--Rynne