Does Snape know? (was: Who knows prophecy contents?)

[cubfanbudwoman]

SSSusan here:
This is what I get for asking two similar, but not fully the same, 
questions here & at HPfGU.  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125061

I get a fascinating response from Pippin here and a couple of 
equally fascinating responses to the more specific issue of Snape's 
knowledge of the prophecy from Mooseming & Nora over yonder.

Curious that when I read Pippin's ideas --

> Let's put two and two together, shall we? Snape goes off on a 
> secret mission at the end of GoF, and all of a sudden, Voldemort 
> is convinced that the Prophecy is the weapon that will tell him 
> how to destroy Harry. 
> 
> Suppose that was the information that allowed Snape to buy his 
> way back into Voldemort's good graces? 'Seize the prophecy and 
> you will be able to destroy Potter once and for all, Master! And if
> it turns out not to contain the information that I say it does, 
> then kill me!'
> 
> Now, I think Snape knows this is a lie, which is why Snape 
> agreed to teach Occlumency to Harry. He knew it would be a 
> disaster for himself if Voldemort ever got his hands on the 
> prophecy. Snape made a bad job of it, and eventually had to give 
> up, but I don't believe the failure was intentional. He's just one 
> of those people who are utterly convinced that the best way to 
> make reluctant people do what you want them to do is to put 
> pressure on them. (IMO, one of Rowling's goals is not only to show 
> us that bullying is wrong but that it doesn't work, even when the 
> bully's intentions are noble.)
> 
> I don't think Dumbledore told Snape what the prophecy actually 
> says.  I can't see a need to know. But I think Snape may have 
> been the one of the 'useful spies' who told Dumbledore that 
> Voldemort was after the Potters and the Longbottoms, and, 
> putting two and two together, has come to think this was tied to 
> the prophecy.

-- it all makes perfect sense, of course.

So did Mooseming & Nora over at HPfGU.  Mooseming commented upon the 
difference between knowing something and believing it, especially 
when coupled with a Snape who is arrogant.  Her thoughts on 
arrogance vs. confidence and how this might be playing out with 
Snape make me [finally] see a way in which it would make SENSE that 
Snape could actually know the contents of the prophecy and still 
treat Harry & Neville in the manner in which he does [including 
those things he does NOT do for them].  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125115

Nora, while concurring with much of Mooseming's comments, pointed 
out the important difference between knowing something [because 
someone told you so] and KNOWING something [because you've seen & 
believed for yourself].   Her take is that Snape does not, in fact, 
know the contents of the prophecy.  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125122

In all this I am pleased to be learning that there isn't some grand 
consensus out there of which I was simply unaware, but that there 
are all sorts of takes on what this particular individual [Snape] 
does or doesn't know, how he "got there," and how it might or might 
not impact his treatment of Harry &/or Neville.  I don't feel 
certain that I know which version of events I buy into most fully, 
but I am pleased that each makes much more SENSE of Snape than I 
could make of him myself before.  

(So gracias.)


Pippin said:
> Harry is sure that Snape *does* know something about what's in 
> the Department of Mysteries and *does* think that he's special 
> and important -- that's why he went snooping in the Pensieve 
> after all.

SSSusan:
Pippin, could you expand on this a bit?  I understand you're saying 
that Harry believes Snape knows something about the DoM, but what do 
you mean in the latter part of the sentence?  That Harry went 
snooping in the pensieve in order to prove to himself that Snape 
DOES believe Harry is special & important?  If that's what you mean, 
I'd like to know more why you think Harry believes this.  I've been 
rather inclined to the position that Harry takes Snape very much at 
face value and thus believes Snape hates him and thinks there is 
nothing special about Harry indeed.

Pippin:
> But since Dumbledore says that he alone could have overcome 
> the flaw in his plan (by telling Harry about his destiny) it 
> doesn't seem that he thought any one else knew.
> 
> I think he is wrong. I believe James told Sirius before he died, 
> and that Sirius told Lupin after they were reunited--probably 
> before the graveyard scene in GoF. This is the meaning of the 
> glance that Sirius and Lupin exchange before they start telling 
> Harry about the 'weapon.'  

SSSusan:
I definitely think Sirius knew about the prophecy, whether it 
happened the way you are suggesting or whether DD shared the 
information with him during Harry's 4th or 5th year.  Lupin I have 
wondered about but haven't been sure of, though you're correct that 
this look could be explained by their *both* knowing.


Pippin:
> This raises the interesting possibility that Eversoevil!Lupin  
> revealed all or part of the rest of the prophecy to Voldemort, 
> leaving Voldemort with a dilemma: which of his spies is lying? 
> For once his vaunted truthsense does not tell him. No wonder he 
> wants to hear the danged thing for himself!
> 
> Voldemort certainly acts as if he knows that only he can destroy 
> Harry. In that case, his aim in trying to force Dumbledore and 
> Harry to fight was not to destroy Harry but to destroy Dumbledore, 
> the only one he fears.


SSSusan:
Fascinating.  You mean Voldy is facing the question, "Is Snape 
telling the truth and therefore the prophecy will empower me to 
destroy Potter, or is Lupin telling the truth and the prophecy gives 
me very little I didn't already know?"  Is that a fair summation?

It seems to me that we could end up with Voldy trying to force DD & 
Harry to fight without the ESE!Lupin step in there.  But if you're 
correct that Voldy was actually trying to destroy *DD*, then it 
would be evidence that he knows the total contents of the prophecy.

Siriusly Snapey Susan