Some speculations on the night at GH

[Lyn J. Mangiameli]

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Charme" <dontask2much at y...> wrote:
> Lyn said:
> 
> Hi Charm,
> Some counter-speculations below. All of this is just tossing stuff out for 
> the fun of it.
> 
> Charme:
> 
> Amen to that :)  I find this sort of exchange (as Kneasy well knows) quite 
> to my liking as it's supposed to be fun and not this full assault 
> perpetrated by other Potter fans against each other on other 
> Boards-Which-Should-Not-Be-Named. I figure if we all put our heads together, 
> we can figure out what She-Who-Writes-In-Riddles is really up to faster than 
> she can produce the next book.  ;)
> 
Lyn again:
Yah, this is almost exactly the way it is for me.
> 
> Lyn now,
>snip> 
> "Thrice defied him." I'm unable to get much of a grasp of what this entails 
> (which
> obviously is the intention of JKR and not you). Defied covers a lot of 
> territory.
<snip>
> 
> Charme ponders:
> 
> I can completely understand the perception of vagueness around the "thrice 
> defied" part of the prophecy and like you, I have trouble with it whatever 
> it may eventually mean. ( I have major issues with any prophecy overall, but 
> that's a different thread all together.) One area of canon which supports 
> that perhaps the Potters did more than just say "no" is Lucius Malfoy's 
> statement in CoS:
> 
> "You'll meet the same sticky end as your parents one of these days,
> 
> Harry Potter," he said softly. "They were meddlesome fools, too"
> 
> It's the word "meddlesome" which makes me think "interfering" which denotes 
> action in my mind.  Just saying "no" is a "rejection", at least to me. Maybe 
> I'm assuming too much, but what else is a girl who is waiting for HBP to do, 
> aye? :)

Lyn again. 
A good point, with evidence that I had forgotten appeared in the book. Makes one very 
curious what those meddlesome actions were. 

> <snip>
> 
> Lyn now:
> You bring up for me another line from that scene that has also troubled me. 
> "Not Harry!
> Please.have mercy..have mercy.." Now I know this is usually considered to be 
> the final
> pleas of a distraught mother, and well they might be, but I find them 
> troublesome. Why
> would a member of the order, one who has lived through LV's reign of terror, 
> etc. even
> have it come to mind to think that LV might give any weight to pleas for 
> mercy? It just
> doesn't quite match with  my image of someone who has thrice defied LV and 
> who has set
> up a defensive charm that might destroy LV and also save HP.  Again, her 
> pleas appear to
> be suggesting more weakness in the face of a LV attack than is warranted. 
> Rather, I am
> suspicious that they are not again  reminding LV of what they want for him 
> to do, indeed
> virtually inviting LV to attack HP.  An uncommon interpretation, I grant 
> you, but one I
> would suggest is not inconsistent with a prepared plan to save Harry and 
> destroy LV. In
> the larger scheme of things, did Lilly sacrifice herself solely to save 
> Harry, or might she
> have quite deliberately sacrificed herself to save the WW as well as her 
> child?
> 
> Charme replies:
> 
> Well, let's look at the definition and context of mercy:
> 
> - Compassionate treatment, especially of those under one's power; clemency.
> - A disposition to be kind and forgiving:
> - Something for which to be thankful; a blessing:
> - Alleviation of distress; relief
> 
> When I think of these definitions, uncannily what comes to mind is humanity 
> and that virtue applied to DD's calling LV "Tom" rather than by his more 
> inhumane name. Pleas of a distraught mother not withstanding, appealing to 
> the humanity of an aggressor is not uncommon in a life or death situation 
> regardless of who the victim is doing the pleading - mother, sister, 
> brother, friend, etc. While DD doesn't plea, he does use the tactic of 
> trying to appeal to "Tom" as a person (human), instead of this Lord Voldy 
> thingy everyone is scared to death of. I can see your point about the 
> prepared plan; it astonishes me *why* LV let Lily live long enough to have a 
> discussion like this in the first place.  A note about the timing of the 
> discussion:  it remains to be seen what the exact sequence of events was 
> here, as it seems disjointed and chaotic the way its written in PoA.  And 
> who said what when may be a critical factor.
> 
Lyn again
Interesting reading of the scene--note how it influenced my reply to Joywitch in the post 
just above.
> <snip>
> 
> 
> BTW, isn't it interesting that Peter's wand is rather conspicuous by its 
> absence. Peter may
> have an extremely desperate desire to avoid his wand from ever being subject 
> to PI, not
> just by the wizarding world, but by LV.  Just imagine what might become of 
> Peter if LV ever
> checked that wand!
> 
> Charme absolutely delighted:
> 
> Wouldn't it be something if Peter Pettigrew, the rat traitor who betrayed 
> his friends, turns out to have *purposely* helped LV out of his body at GH 
> in this whole debacle like some of the imprisoned DE's suspect? PoA and 
> Sirius:
> "You haven't been hiding from me for twelve years," said Black. "You've been 
> hiding from Voldemort's old supporters. I heard things in Azkaban, Peter... 
> They all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them....I've heard 
> them screaming all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think 
> the double-crosser double-crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters' on 
> your information... and Voldemort met his downfall"

Lyn again:
Can't ever complain about a satisfied customer.  :-)   BTW, I so appreciate the way you 
bring direct quotes from canon in to illustrate and clarify the discussion.

Appreciatively

Lyn