[the_old_crowd] Re: Some speculations on the night at GH

[Charme]

Lyn said:

Hi Charm,
Some counter-speculations below. All of this is just tossing stuff out for 
the fun of it.

Charme:

Amen to that :)  I find this sort of exchange (as Kneasy well knows) quite 
to my liking as it's supposed to be fun and not this full assault 
perpetrated by other Potter fans against each other on other 
Boards-Which-Should-Not-Be-Named. I figure if we all put our heads together, 
we can figure out what She-Who-Writes-In-Riddles is really up to faster than 
she can produce the next book.  ;)

<snip>

Lyn now, keeping all of Charme's post because it provides canon background.

"Thrice defied him." I'm unable to get much of a grasp of what this entails 
(which
obviously is the intention of JKR and not you). Defied covers a lot of 
territory. Simply
saying "no" can be considered defiance, simply failing to act can be 
considered defiance,
actively choosing to join with one's enemy can be considered defiance. I 
sometimes find
that thrice defied is interpreted as meaning the Potters engaged in acts 
that were of a
direct and immediate threat to LV. Frankly, I think may assume too much. 
Thus, I don't
think that LV was necessarily afraid or even worried about the powers of 
James and Lilly
themselves. Indeed, I think his actions with Lilly suggest that he didn't 
see her as any
significant threat at all.  One is also given the impression there was 
little time between
James telling Lilly to run and LV appearing before her. Yes James may have 
fought bravely,
even valiantly, but I would suggest that he was a trivial foe for LV 
(particularly given the
MOM duel with DD where his ability to both send and overcome spells was 
revealed ) and
was not a worry at GH.  I also would suggest that LV by nature is confident 
in his
wizarding powers, and would not have felt threatened in his ability to 
prevail over the
Potters. Now a DD trap is another matter, but it appears to be little 
evidence that LV ever
considered this.

Charme ponders:

I can completely understand the perception of vagueness around the "thrice 
defied" part of the prophecy and like you, I have trouble with it whatever 
it may eventually mean. ( I have major issues with any prophecy overall, but 
that's a different thread all together.) One area of canon which supports 
that perhaps the Potters did more than just say "no" is Lucius Malfoy's 
statement in CoS:

"You'll meet the same sticky end as your parents one of these days,

Harry Potter," he said softly. "They were meddlesome fools, too"

It's the word "meddlesome" which makes me think "interfering" which denotes 
action in my mind.  Just saying "no" is a "rejection", at least to me. Maybe 
I'm assuming too much, but what else is a girl who is waiting for HBP to do, 
aye? :)

Thinking out loud here, I believe Death Eaters (not LV) could be trusted to 
dispose of the Potters, hence one of the reasons LV was there.  I mean, look 
at how sort of ineffective they were against Harry and company in OoP in the 
DoM - while it's true things geared up a little after the Order members' 
arrival, LV's right in a way that his faithful DE's allowed Harry Potter to 
thwart him once again. Therefore, I think he personally had to attend to the 
Potters, whatever other reasons may come to light.

<snip>

Lyn now:
You bring up for me another line from that scene that has also troubled me. 
"Not Harry!
Please.have mercy..have mercy.." Now I know this is usually considered to be 
the final
pleas of a distraught mother, and well they might be, but I find them 
troublesome. Why
would a member of the order, one who has lived through LV's reign of terror, 
etc. even
have it come to mind to think that LV might give any weight to pleas for 
mercy? It just
doesn't quite match with  my image of someone who has thrice defied LV and 
who has set
up a defensive charm that might destroy LV and also save HP.  Again, her 
pleas appear to
be suggesting more weakness in the face of a LV attack than is warranted. 
Rather, I am
suspicious that they are not again  reminding LV of what they want for him 
to do, indeed
virtually inviting LV to attack HP.  An uncommon interpretation, I grant 
you, but one I
would suggest is not inconsistent with a prepared plan to save Harry and 
destroy LV. In
the larger scheme of things, did Lilly sacrifice herself solely to save 
Harry, or might she
have quite deliberately sacrificed herself to save the WW as well as her 
child?

Charme replies:

Well, let's look at the definition and context of mercy:

- Compassionate treatment, especially of those under one's power; clemency.
- A disposition to be kind and forgiving:
- Something for which to be thankful; a blessing:
- Alleviation of distress; relief

When I think of these definitions, uncannily what comes to mind is humanity 
and that virtue applied to DD's calling LV "Tom" rather than by his more 
inhumane name. Pleas of a distraught mother not withstanding, appealing to 
the humanity of an aggressor is not uncommon in a life or death situation 
regardless of who the victim is doing the pleading - mother, sister, 
brother, friend, etc. While DD doesn't plea, he does use the tactic of 
trying to appeal to "Tom" as a person (human), instead of this Lord Voldy 
thingy everyone is scared to death of. I can see your point about the 
prepared plan; it astonishes me *why* LV let Lily live long enough to have a 
discussion like this in the first place.  A note about the timing of the 
discussion:  it remains to be seen what the exact sequence of events was 
here, as it seems disjointed and chaotic the way its written in PoA.  And 
who said what when may be a critical factor.

<snip>

Snipping now several other good points Charme  made, but ending myself with 
this:

BTW, isn't it interesting that Peter's wand is rather conspicuous by its 
absence. Peter may
have an extremely desperate desire to avoid his wand from ever being subject 
to PI, not
just by the wizarding world, but by LV.  Just imagine what might become of 
Peter if LV ever
checked that wand!

Charme absolutely delighted:

Wouldn't it be something if Peter Pettigrew, the rat traitor who betrayed 
his friends, turns out to have *purposely* helped LV out of his body at GH 
in this whole debacle like some of the imprisoned DE's suspect? PoA and 
Sirius:
"You haven't been hiding from me for twelve years," said Black. "You've been 
hiding from Voldemort's old supporters. I heard things in Azkaban, Peter... 
They all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them....I've heard 
them screaming all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think 
the double-crosser double-crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters' on 
your information... and Voldemort met his downfall"

Charme,