Think about Neville

[Lyn J. Mangiameli]

Outstanding discussion, Kneasy. Below, a few comments on it interspersed with most of 
your original.

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> When you think about it,  prophecies are funny things. The odds  are 
> that some sort of self-fulfillment will occur rather than the 
> ineluctable progression of events outside the control of those 
> concerned. Every researcher knows of the risks of bias, of 
> "Experimenters Expectation" where no matter how rigorous the protocol 
> the results all too often reflect what one expected or hoped to find. 
> The surest way of avoiding this is with "double blind" testing, though 
> even that has demonstrated odd results on rare occasions.

Yes, but I suspect the WW is about the last place one would find such investment in 
concern about challenges to scientific validity.
> 
> The Prophecy Bank in the Dept. of Mysteries is more than just a filing 
> system IMO. 

Now Lyn
Yes, precisely. After all, it is the Department of Mysteries where a lot of study and research 
takes place. Actually interesting that so many of the globes are dusty and aren't regularly 
examined. All the more interesting that there are so very many of them. Is this because 
they have been collected over centuries (and thus the orbs are very old technology), or 
because there are so very many of them. You'd almost think that after the prophecy had 
been fullfilled it would no longer be stored on the rack. And other questions are raised, 
such as how many of these globes represent a prophecy that could have been fullfilled in a 
lifetime (such as essentially Harry's), or how many span centuries. Still, an awful lot of 
prophecies given the size of the WW world, and the relative rarity of there occurance and 
discussion in the world HP is familiar with. Likely just a little glitch in consistency required 
for dramatic effect, but if not, then again, that's an awful lot of prophecies given DD 
skepticism about them and the rate that ST (assumedly a rather rare specimen herself) 
produces them.

>Englobing a prophecy, sticking it in a rack, telling the 
> one who reported it to keep his mouth shut and then sitting back to 
> await events may go some way to improving the chances of events 
> progressing without expectations of the public, the participants or the 
> observers/evaluators getting in the way. 

Now Lyn
Assuming that is really all the happens. Wouldn't it be interesting (and almost to be 
expected) if the workers in the DoM have been engaged in attempting to modify the 
contents, thus changing the course of the future? Indeed, JKR has shown us a WW 
"technology," that allows one to possibly manipulate the past, why would not the WW be 
just as interested in manipulating the future?

 
>snip<
> 
> The problem is, there's too much of what seems like self-fulfillment 
> going on for my tastes, most of it from Voldy. He knows part of 
> Trelawny's mystic mutterings, enough to affect his actions - and others 
> may too. It struck me a few days ago - one of the FAQs - why did the 
> DEs drop in on the Longbottoms for tea and torture? Usually the 
> response is that Frank was an Auror and may have heard things, they may 
> have been at GH on the fateful night, all that sort of speculation. But 
> there's a canon fact that may be significant - Neville was the other 
> alternative. It can hardly be coincidence that the only  family the DEs 
> question is the one that Voldy would be visiting after he'd dealt with 
> the Potters. You don't really think that he'd take the risk of leaving 
> one of the only two possible contenders for top spot gurgling happily 
> in his cot, do you? Not Voldy; he'd nail both of 'em to make sure. And 
> the DEs must have known. Note that the Longbottoms were attacked "when 
> everybody thought they were safe" - had they just come out of hiding, 
> perhaps? Did the DEs leave it so long because they couldn't find them 
> until they did?
> 
> All that emotive guff from DD about Voldy choosing Harry because he 
> identified with his Muggle origins is a load of tripe. He chose Harry 
> because thanks to a traitor he could find him, something he couldn't do 
> with Neville.
> 
Now Lyn
I think this is a very good point. Obviously both infants were in hiding, and obviously LV 
wished to kill them both. We all know how access to Harry was achieved, and it certainly 
appears that access to Neville was not obtained prior to his parents came out of hiding. It 
really seems the evidence for LV "choosing" HP as his first target is lacking, instead, he 
went with the path of greatest opportunity. 

> Another FAQ - why didn't Bella's Bunch kill the Longbottoms? Perhaps 
> they didn't dare. Perhaps they believed that Voldy had to kill them to 
> fulfill the terms of the (to them incomplete) Prophecy. 

Now Lyn,
Or perhaps they learned of the result of the earlier attempt at an AK (adminstered by 
whomever) and believed it unsafe to attempt that particular curse. One thing we have yet 
to learn is the mechanisms DD set in motion for Neville's protection. Would they not be the 
same as for Harry? or might they have been more unique to the characteristics of the 
parents. Really, should not Neville have his own sort of protection resulting from his own 
parent's sacrifice of their sanity, or doesn't it count that they merely went insane from the 
excruciating pain they endured. And of course, did they undergo that pain nobly, refusing 
to reveal Neville's whereabouts or some secret vital to the future of the WW, or did they 
just succumb to torture because they never had anything they could tell. The latter kind of 
strips them of any heroism.

>There could 
> even be another prophecy involved; Alice's obsession with Droobles 
> (which can form orb-like bubbles) may be a desperate and confused 
> attempt to communicate this.

Now Lyn,
Got impatient with me not bring this up again I see. :-)
Yes, as you know, I find this intriguing. I truly wonder if those bubbles are indeed intended 
as a communication about The or another prophecy. The one thing their mutilated minds 
remain capable of focusing on is an analog of a prophecy orb. But of course, what is the 
intended message, should there be one. Is it that Neville should be alert to The prophecy 
or another prophecy. But there are other possibilities as well, and they come from the fact 
that the wrappers Alice gives to Neville are always empty. After all, why not give him a a 
wrapper with something useful inside.  Just maybe, it is a way of suggesting that the orb is 
missing, or better still that the orb is empty (i.e., the prophecy is empty--false). Still 
another possibility is that it is to suggest that a new prophecy needs to be generated. I 
truly don't know, but I strongly suspect their is a significant communication about 
prophecy going in here, and the bubbles are the metaphor.
> 
> One of the conditions of that Prophecy ".. and the Dark Lord will mark 
> him as his equal..." has always  bothered me a bit, 'cos Harry isn't 
> his equal. No way. 

Now Lyn
Not unless that "mark" is sharing a bit of SS secondary to an attempted/aborted 
possession. It may have be that a touch of the presence of SS in both of them that is the 
mark that makes them equal.

>Young Potter has invariably escaped Voldy's evil 
> clutches by the skin of his teeth and the help of protective spells 
> (twice), wands and DD. None were the product of his own magical 
> abilities or volition. Even throwing off the possession attempt at the 
> Ministry wasn't a matter of his own choice, it happened because of some 
> innate attribute possibly emotional in origin and therefore not magical 
> at all.

Now Lyn, 
Maybe so, but maybe not. I give Harry more choice in these matters and I think his 
strength has been in the bravery  and determination of his choices. As you know, I 
personally don't think it was his love for Sirius that directly made Harry uninhabitable by 
LV. I think it was that Harry embraced death, the very thing LV fears most. Harry chose to 
die, I consider that volitional. Rightly, wrongly, foolishly, wisely, Harry has chosen many 
times to put himself (and thus his life) at risk potentially to achieve what he believed to be 
a worthy outcome. Now might it be that HP and LV are equal, not in magical power, but in 
the power of their choices (different in direction though they may be). Just a thought. 
> 
> There's no  time-scale on that Prophecy either. No indication when 
> these things, including the marking, are supposed to happen. And I keep 
> reminding myself - Neville hasn't met Voldy yet. What will happen 
> if/when he does? Now there's food for thought. Is Neville still a 
> possible Voldy's!Bane? Could he take over if Harry cops it in the neck? 
> Is he in fact the one *intended* to sort  out Voldy?

Now Lyn,
The thing that seems lacking for Neville with respect to the prophecy is that their is no 
appearance thus far of any reason why Neville should have any personal difficultive living 
as long as LV is alive. We know differently with respect to Harry and the intertwined 
conciousness of him and LV.
> 
> Looked at objectively Neville seems a much more sympathetic character 
> anyway - honest, upright, honorable - and he doesn't whine. Harry seems 
> flashy and flawed in comparison.

Lyn now. 
Maybe some of us just relate better to being flashy and flawed. :-)
Until OoTP I largely found Neville a bore. Naw give me the one who isn't a slave to others' 
rules, who is active and brave (though a little dumber and lazier than I would like), who is 
willing to do what he finds right, even at the risk of his life (yah Neville risked the derision 
of some fellow students, but this hardly was of the order of the life risk the others 
accepted).  We wouldn't have found Harry at the Nuremberg trials, more likely he would 
have been one who attempted the assassination.