Think about Neville

[Barry Arrowsmith]

An interesting assortment of responses and I'll attempt to bundle them 
together for a sort of omnibus reply. Take heart, there's a sort of 
logic for doing this because some of the points raised in the responses 
impinge on a possible shuffle into contentious territory.

Firstly Magda:

 > You're giving JKR too much credit for wanting to be an author of
 > fantasy fiction rather than a storyteller of a particular tale.
 > Harry's the hero and we're stuck with him, as much of a prat as he
 > can be.
 >
 > Neville is an attractive character, possibly the most attractive in
 > the book.  Unlike everyone else we've known since Book 1, Neville has
 > never let us down but instead goes on to higher and higher triumphs
 > as the series progresses.  He's a great kid.  And he's done it
 > without the built-in cheering section that Harry has with the
 > Weasleys and Hermione.
 >
 > But I really doubt that he's going to be the saviour of the WW.
 > We're just not that invested in him for him to step forward when
 > Harry falters to save the day.
 >


Kneasy:
I've not yet decided just exactly what sort of writer JKR is and I 
doubt I'd be comfortable doing so until after the conclusion. She sort 
of shifts her ground when we're not  looking - very tricky. PS/SS was a 
children's tale par excellence; so too CoS. PoA? Mmm, no, I don't think 
so, same with GoF and OoP even more so. If this is a bildungsroman then 
the innocent youth looks like ending as an angry young man - something 
many would find unsatisfactory. And the usual conventions of fantasy 
often require flawed heroes to pay the ultimate price.

Meanwhile Nev bumbles along with just as much traumatic baggage,  not 
nearly so many personal advantages, yet he quietly gets on with it and 
is starting to look as if he may be impressive. It first struck me in 
GoF when there was all that palaver about getting partners for the  
Ball. Harry and Ron made a right pig's ear of it, Neville just went and 
did it. Struck me as a very un-Neville way of doing things - I'd have 
expected hesitations, haverings and clumsiness, but no; calm and 
collected, no fuss.
It made me wonder just what Neville was.
And the way Jo loves stacking the deck.... hmm; is this someone else 
who is not what they seem?


 > Eustace_Scrubb:  Well, isn't that just because the prophecy was filed
 > _before_ either Neville or Harry were born?  I don't know that I'd
 > call that skepticism...just cluelessness.  Interesting "technical"
 > question though--the prophecy "concerns" not just Voldemort and his
 > potential vanquisher but also the latter's parents...could they also
 > (if living) have raised the orb?...for that matter, is the "alarm"
 > system that allows only those the prophecy concerns to lift the orb
 > internal or external?  That is, does the DoM staff label determine who
 > can pick it up or is there something internal to the prophecy that
 > does this?  If the former, then the fact that Harry picked it up
 > doesn't necessarily mean the prophecy's _really_ about him.  Anyway,
 > as Magda points out, it may not be fruitful to spend too much time on
 > what the prophecy "really" means.
 >

Kneasy:
Yeah; this goes back to an old post of mine where I surmised that it's 
the globe that is protected, not the prophecy - and it's the Ministry 
folk who do the englobing and setting the protection. They're the ones 
that have to decide who the prophecy concerns - and they could be 
wrong.

Again yes, the question mark was placed before GH - afterwards there  
was an assumption that Harry's name is the one that ought to be there - 
but the question mark remains. Is this meant to indicate continuing but 
overly cautious doubts on the part of the Ministry, administrative 
sloppiness, or a clue to the readers? (Take the list in the left hand, 
the pin in the right, close your eyes and....)

 >
 > Eustace_Scrubb:
 > Ah, now this is very much to the point.  The "why" of the DEs visit to
 > Frank and Alice seems very likely to be Neville.  Someone else on
 > HPfGU has named this the "King Herod strategy" and I think it makes a
 > lot of sense.

Kneasy:
Interesting. Is this recent? I  haven't been reading the HPfGU board 
since the New Year and I can't recall it from the 18 months before 
then. A post number for the start of the thread would be appreciated.

 > We don't even have to postulate that Bella and company
 > knew anything about a prophecy...Voldy knew _why_ he was going after
 > the Potters and the Longbottoms.  His minions probably only knew
 > _that_ he was doing so.  But when he disappeared they went after the
 > second target--possibly because with the Potters dead they assumed
 > that the Longbottoms _must_ have been the ones who stymied their boss.
 >

Kneasy;
Or: they came to the reasonable assumption that any protection Harry 
had, Neville had too. And by finding out what it was, they'd find out 
what had  happened to Voldy.

 >
 > Of course, this assumes a level of subtlety we haven't necessarily
 > seen from Voldemort yet--especially the assumption he may not have
 > felt the need to blab everything to the DEs.  But _I_ sure wouldn't
 > let Bellatrix in on secrets like that...she'd blurt it all out in the
 > heat of taunting some auror who'd then manage to escape her.
 >

Kneasy:
About time, is my opinion. I'm one of many who complain at the inept 
cardboard cut-out representation of the chief villain. If he's so smart 
why don't he show it?  Mind you, it's heart-warming the way Bella is 
reduced to grovelling wreckdom whenever Voldy is actually present - all 
right and proper IMO. But yes, she shouldn't be let out on  her own, 
she can't be trusted as far as Frank's intestines stretch.

 > Now Lyn,
 > Got impatient with me not bring this up again I see. :-)
 > Yes, as you know, I find this intriguing. I truly wonder if those 
bubbles are > indeed intended as a communication about The or another 
prophecy. The > one thing their mutilated minds remain capable of 
focusing on is an             > analog of a prophecy orb. But of 
course, what is the intended message,    > should there be one. Is it 
that Neville should be alert to The prophecy
 > or another prophecy. But there are other possibilities as well, and 
they     > come from the fact that the wrappers Alice gives to Neville 
are always       > empty. After all, why not give him a wrapper with 
something useful inside.  > Just maybe, it is a way of suggesting that 
the orb is missing, or better still > that the orb is empty (i.e., the 
prophecy is empty--false). Still another         > possibility is that 
it is to suggest that a new prophecy needs to be                > 
generated. I truly don't know, but I strongly suspect their is a 
significant     > communication about prophecy going in here, and the 
bubbles are the
 > metaphor.

Kneasy:
Yep. Since you're the 'onlie begetter' of this entertaining 
Droobles/orb twist I think you're entitled -  nay, obliged - to 
postulate that it could be important every time the Longbottoms are 
mentioned.

 >
 > Now Lyn
 > Not unless that "mark" is sharing a bit of SS secondary to an 
attempted/    > aborted possession. It may have be that a touch of the 
presence of SS in > both of them that is the mark that makes them 
equal.

Kneasy:
Yes, you've mentioned this off-site and it looks like a reasonable 
theory : "Possession Theory, Equality variant, consequence of 
incomplete or truncated transfer."

 >
 > Now Lyn,
 > Maybe so, but maybe not. I give Harry more choice in these matters 
and I > think his strength has been in the bravery  and determination 
of his           > choices. As you know, I personally don't think it 
was his love for Sirius that > directly made Harry uninhabitable by LV. 
I think it was that Harry                    > embraced death, the very 
thing LV fears most. Harry chose to die, I             > consider that 
volitional. Rightly, wrongly, foolishly, wisely, Harry has           > 
chosen many times to put himself (and thus his life) at risk 
potentially to     > achieve what he believed to be a worthy outcome. 
Now might it be that    > HP and LV are equal, not in magical power, 
but in the power of their             > choices (different in direction 
though they may be). Just a thought.

Kneasy:
I dunno; altruism is one thing, rash idiocy is something else.
He never, ever, *ever* thinks of consequences. Not only that, he never, 
ever, *ever* has a real plan either.

PS/SS  - "Let's get the Stone before the baddy!"
How?
"We just pop down the trapdoor and evade all those protections that are 
intended to stymie a seriously evil skilled wizard! It's easy!"
Yeah. And then?
"Oh, we'll decide what to do then later."

CoS.
"We'll just pop down the plughole, confront this ginormous 
death-dealing monster, laugh at the Heir, rescue Ginny and Bob's your 
Uncle. Simple."

OoP.
"We'll  fly to London, break into the Ministry, penetrate the most 
closely guarded sanctum in the WW and  rescue Sirius. Piece of cake."
The DEs, Voldy?
"Oh, we'll sort  them out later."

Arrgh!
I think I'll invent a new syndrome just for Harry - IHAND.
Impulsive Half-Assed Numpty  Disorder.

(Note to non-Brits - a numpty can be defined as a non-thinking pillock.)

 >
 > Now Lyn,
 > The thing that seems lacking for Neville with respect to the prophecy 
is     > that their is no appearance thus far of any reason why Neville 
should        > have any personal difficultive living as long as LV is 
alive. We know           > differently with respect to Harry and the 
intertwined conciousness of him  > and LV.
 >

Kneasy:
Ah. You've missed my point,  I think.
See, this is was I was nonchalantly edging towards, whistling and 
admiring the dickie birds, hoping somebody would pick it up and run 
with it so that I could say "Do you know, that's just what I was 
thinking!"

There are supposedly two possible targets for Voldy -  Harry and 
Neville.
It would be reasonable to assume that they both had protection - Harry 
had at least two protections - anti-Voldy and the blood/family dwelling 
varieties.
The anti-Voldy *may* have been triggered by Lily's death, but I doubt 
it - what would have happened if Voldy had just swept Lily aside and 
nailed Harry first?  And since DD was involved the 'Old Magic' may have 
been, probably was, placed on both boys. The blood protection that came 
to Harry on Lily's death would not apply to Neville, Alice is still 
alive.

Voldy has now negated Harry's anti-Voldy protection, he can touch him - 
  but what  about Neville? Was the protective spell removed after Voldy 
went to pieces? Maybe not. DD didn't believe Voldy was destroyed, did 
he? And if it wasn't then Neville  is still Voldy-proof while Harry  
isn't. This could set things up nicely for 
death-of-Harry-revenged-by-Neville or 
Harry-at-Voldy's-mercy-saved-by-Neville depending on your tastes.

If Voldy's choice of first victim was based purely on the availability 
of a betrayer, (and so far as we know no-one suggested that there was 
anything special about Harry *before* GH) and assuming that Voldy 
himself did not transfer 'the power he knows not' (logically unlikely), 
then the chances are even that Neville is the one that has this power. 
Whisper it if you dare - Voldy picked the wrong one. All the problems 
he's had with the pestiferous Potter stem from GH and protection, 
transfer of powers and that bloody wand. At no time has Harry looked as 
if he could knock Voldy off his perch. Perhaps he doesn't have the 
necessary 'power'; perhaps Neville has it instead. After all DD doesn't 
claim that the whatever-it-is that Harry is so full of that caused 
Voldy to abort his possession attempt at the Ministry is the same power 
that will destroy him, now does he?
"Ugly Duckling" anyone?