Connecting the dots

[nkafkafi]

> Snow previously:
> > Section: F.A.Q.
> > In 'Chamber of Secrets', what would have happened if Ginny had died
> > and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?
> > "I can't answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but 
> it
> > would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably."
> >
> > If Riddle had re-birthed himself using Ginny's soul Tom would have
> > possibly become the pureblood that Salazar needed being as his own
> > last remaining heir was born half pure grain muggle and therefore of
> > little value to the cause. 
> 
> Kneasy:
> Neat, very neat.


Neri:
Yes. I wonder if Voldy chose to attack baby Harry because he was
saving pureblood Neville as a possible resource.


> Kneasy:
> 
> In retrospect there's an awful lot of stuff in CoS, particularly in 
> the
> climactic scene, that could turn out to be well worth teasing apart.
> Yes, we've all offered opinions, but it's one of the books from before
> the time the mass discussions got started. I may be mistaken but my
> impression is that more often than not it's used to mine material that
> can be quoted to support a theory rather than as a starting point in
> it's own right.
> 
> 
> Snow:
> 
> Absolutely! The first two books have the meat of the story but we 
> have all fallen into the trap of taking too much into consideration 
> thereafter, which only seems to complicate theorizing. The main list 
> has gone over every chapter of the latest book but it appears to be 
> of no avail or very little. If you start at the first book and go 
> chapter for chapter you have four more books of knowledge to add to 
> the chapter that you are examining, much more lucrative.  
>


Neri:
I couldn't agree more. CoS is usually my favorite book, and I think it
reveals the most about the whole series. JKR said she had nearly let
out everything in CoS. But I suspect there are additional reasons why
it wasn't much theorized about. CoS is perhaps the most corny book of
the series. Nobody we were sure was good in the beginning is found out
to be evil in the end, and no one we thought was evil is found out to
be good (unless you count Dobby, which I don't). CoS is the most
romantic, fairytale style, with the hero with a magic sword going to
save the maiden in distress. But perhaps most of all, CoS is the most
metaphysical. It's the book were Harry finds himself in the climax
against a kid that looks like the mirror image of himself but is truly
evil, rather than against something evil that looks evil (or at least
like a rat). CoS is the book that suggests evil is within us, not
simply in a stereotype bad guy with snake-like nostrils.

Of course, I'm just rambling. The true reason CoS is the least popular
book is much more straightforward – it's the book in which Snape plays
his smallest role.


> Kneasy:
> 
> An example of what I mean - Ginny is possessed but states quite
> categorically in OoP that her possessed mind was a blank, she can
> remember nothing of what went on. Harry's possession in the Ministry 
> is
> just the opposite; technicolour, 3-D and with Dolby sen-surround. OK,
> Voldy was in control for a very short time, but that period should be 
> a
> blank, shouldn't it? Why the difference? Are there different types or
> qualities of possession?
> 
> Snow:
> <snip>
> 
> Harry's possession on the other hand reminds me of the "Never-ending 
> Story" when Atrayu (sic) met with himself in the mirror. Only people 
> who can see themselves for who they are can look and not be afraid or 
> in Harry's case feel pain. Harry had had a similar reaction in GOF 
> when he tried to remember what Voldemort looked like when he turned 
> his chair and killed Frank Bryce (like looking in a mirror). You made 
> me think of this when you paralleled Harry and Tom Riddle to the 
> point that they appeared to be one person looking at two sides of the 
> same. No one likes to see the bad side of who they are or what they 
> may become. Harry may have to face himself or that which he could 
> become if he does not acknowledge the difference between the two, 
> that is choice.
> 

Neri:
When looking at the less metaphysical level, I think that the
difference between the two possessions is a mere difference in degree.
Harry was never completely possessed. He was still fighting not to
lose himself. It was a hostile takeover attempt and it failed. Ginny
opened her heart willingly, and she was much deeper into it. The
amnesia might simply be the decision of the possessor rather than an
obligatory side effect. Once the possessor takes control, shutting
down the possessed makes sense, especially if it's an annoying kid who
is not likely to cooperate and doesn't have any special magical
abilities that the possessor needs. Also, it was a simple tactical
decision – as long as you still can't possess someone 24/7, you need
to hide from her the fact that she's possessed.


> Kneasy:
> 
> <snip> Though I've never really understood why
> stabbing the Diary would destroy Construct!Tom yet leave Ginny 
> unharmed
> - they had one life between them, didn't they? So if that life is
> terminated why did Ginny wake up?
> 
> Snow:
> 
> But wasn't Ginny actually being sucked into the Diary via its master 
> (Tom Riddle 50 years ago) who was using her to gain his strength? If 
> the object that was used to keep them joined was destroyed wouldn't 
> it release Ginny? Riddle was still just a memory inside the diary 
> until he could be totally released from the diary by using the soul 
> that he claims he needed:
> 
> "So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be 
> exactly what I wanted
I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her 
> deepest fears, her darkest secrets." COS PG 310 U. S. 
> 

Neri:
Mechanically speaking, JKR's magical constructs almost never make
complete sense, and it's not like I haven't tried. Does anyone here
really understand how Harry looked into the mirror of Erised and just
had the stone in his pocket? If so, PLEASE send me the flow chart. I
can think offhand of only one of her magical constructs that's really
fully consistent - the time-travel in PoA - and this is more standard
Sci-Fi than magic. But even that gets muddy once you add the Marauders
Map and Lupin's transformation. The potions riddle in SS/PS also seems
to work well, although according to the Lexicon there are actually two
possible solutions that I never bothered to work out. But this wasn't
magic at all. I suspect she filched it out of a crosswords journal and
just changed some details in the setting to make it more gothic. 


> 
> Kneasy:
> 
> And is it significant that Ginny's possession, what with the total
> blankness, seems suspiciously similar to Sybil having one of her funny
> turns? Who is pulling Sybil's strings? Now there's a question! A 
> happy hunting ground for Puppetmaster!DD enthusiasts.
> 

Neri:
Well, maybe he mixed Ginny and Trelawney because he was trying to
control so many puppets simultaneously <g>.

> Snow:
> 
> So I take it you don't like the lovely Ms. Trelawney much, nor do 
> many others. I wont go off on her because it is very unimportant to 
> the scheme of things but the eavesdropper business is just too much. 
> Dumbledore and/or the barkeep were well aware that this person had 
> heard any extent of the prophecy and they allowed him a slap on the 
> wrist with a lifetime ban to a low-life pub, doesn't seem to make a 
> lick of sense unless they used this person to their benefit. (Dung 
> comes to mind) If they couldn't use this person why didn't they just 
> use a memory charm on him so that any information he had could not be 
> remembered nor repeated? Seems apropos that they use this character 
> to their benefit if he could be gently influenced (the Dursley's) to 
> do so.

Neri:
Aren't you mixing things? It was Dung who was banned from the HH, but
we don't know that he was the eavesdropper.

DD didn't have any idea that he's going to hear anything important in
the HH, and then he was probably too occupied with Sybil's words to
pay attention to other things. My take is that he found out that there
was an eavesdropper only after the fact. Aberforth caught the
eavesdropper and threw him out, and only later told DD about it, when
the eavesdropper was already long gone. No wonder DD doesn't think
much about his brother's intellect. Alternatively, maybe Aberforth
failed to even tell DD later, and DD only found out that there was an
eavesdropper when Snape supplied him with information about Voldy's
plans. 

Neri