[the_old_crowd] Re: Of Hxs and parasites

[elfundeb]

Delurking briefly to contemplate one of my favorite topics (with apologies
in advance for any wonky formatting) --

David:
My memory of HP is getting ever more unreliable, but doesn't HBP imply
Tom bumped off his dad and grandparents at the *beginning* of the
fifth year? And the simulacrum in COS, presumably frozen at the age
of his last memory input to the diary, is a prefect.

Debbie:
I doubt we can pin this down exactly.  CoS states that TR was "about
sixteen" and a prefect when he framed Hagrid for opening the Chamber.  In
the spring of fifth year he would have been sixteen.  Slughorn's Whorecrux
memory shows TR at approximately sixteen as well.  The diary was 50 years
old in CoS and purchased in London.  Unless TR had a blank diary hanging
around during fifth year, the evidence suggests it may have been purchased
that summer, in London -- after fifth year and after the murders of the
elder Riddles, and, if so, probably for the express purpose of experimenting
with a dual-purpose Whorecrutch.  I don't recall any evidence that he put
the memory in the diary first and then decided to use it as a horsecrutch.

So, timing is uncertain, especially given JKR's mathematical talents, but
the JKR shows Slughorn's Horsecrux memory back-to-back with Morfin's memory
of the Riddles' deaths, suggesting that TR used this knowledge first on dear
old dad, and used some later death (or even a grandparent) to create the
Diary Hx


>    Lyn here:
> Now that's a most interesting matter to consider. So did TR just come up
> with something
> that had never been done before? I think not or DD would have shown
> greater surprise
> when the nature of the diary was first revealed.
>

Debbie:
I dunno about that.  DD's later testimony seems to suggest he suspected it
was a Whorecrux immediately. A mere memory doesn't seem capable of
possession; you need a soul for that.  In fact, I have long believed that a
Potterverse soul *does* encompass the owner's memories (so that all
Horsecruces contain memories), and not because of the diary.  One look at
Vapormort, who was little more than soul fragment, reveals that he retained
his memories as well as his personality when he was, as he puts it, "pure
spirit."  Even as a spirit, he could interact with others, just like the
diary.

Kneasy:
No
hint of
> a Hosscrutch - which presumably should become evident when the
> Diary was accessed - and would be a damned sight more up-to-date
> with maleficent properties than the merely nasty, spiteful, teenage
Tom.

Debbie:
The genius of the diary, IMO, was not that Voldemort put a memory in it, but
that he enchanted the diary so the so-called memory could interact with
others *without* destroying the Horsecrux.  And if there's any sleight of
hand on JKR's part, it's that in CoS the soul bit is described as a memory
rather than as a bit of TR's soul.  Perhaps not a lie, but far less than the
whole truth.

Snow:
Slytherin's Chamber could only be opened by his heir, which had a
natural gift of parceltongue. It sounds like Slytherin left the gift
of parceltongue in the Chamber to awaken the entrance when used (like
Ginny awakened the entrance to the Diary), wherein the memory of
Slytherin waits to be seductive.

Debbie:
So perhaps the Diary's access charm was not so unique after all.  Like
Hermione's charm on the coin, which borrowed from Dark Mark technology, TR
merely created a means to access the diary (by writing in it) by borrowing
and adapting from the means Slytherin used to seal and open the chamber.
TR's charm was more advanced than old Sally's, though, in that the
memory/whorecrux inside was in control, instead of some random Parseltongue.


Lyn:


>   No, someone must have done it before,
> and DD knew of that, so what are, or have been the prior examples? Who did
> them, and do
> any other examples remain. Now wouldn't it be so very interesting if SS
> had made
> someting similar, or better yet, that each of the founders had done
> something similar. And
> what information might they contain for the present generation of wizards?
> Harry is now
> familiar with the workings of a diary, so will he be prepared to use other
> memory objects
> for his future purposes.
>

Debbie:
I don't doubt he'll make good use of, e.g., Dumbledore's portrait.  (Old
Sally's portrait, sadly, seems to be missing.)  But portraits, and mere
memories, aren't capable of possession.  At least DD seems to think so ("A
mere memory starting to act and think for itself . . . sapping the life out
of the girl?")



>
> Lyn again:
> If the diary held the TR
> before age 16, then would another Hx contain him just as 22, and another
> at 27, etc. Kind
> of makes one wonder what would happen if they were all able to materialize
> themselves
> through the contributed life force of another (like Ginny was meant to
> be), then would they
> recognize themselves? Would they all hang around as a "band of brothers?"
> Nah, this is
> just not elegant enough for me.
>

Debbie:
Or, they would merge into one?  The four outstanding soul-bits don't merge
into Voldemort's body because they are encased in their Whorecoffins.  If
they were released (not destroyed as the ring and diary whorecruxes were),
chances are they would go join their brothers.



>   Lyn Again:
> Yes, it seems very likely to be some link between the deceased and the
> nature of the Hx. I
> agree, it there is reason to believe TR was VERY selective in who he
> killed for the makings
> of a Hx. Was it really that LV could not have killed "the spare" in the
> graveyard, or was it
> that "the spare" was not worthy of being killed. Still, lots of folks are
> killed without a Hx
> being made, indeed that's the standard way of things. So surely TR could
> select which
> murders would be significant enough "rents" in his soul to be worthy of Hx
> formation.
>

Debbie:
Well, it could be that the depth and extent of the tear depends not on the
importance of the victim but on TR's intent.  Criminal law distinguishes
between one who kills in the heat of passion and one who calmly selects his
victims and plans the crime.  TR planned his parents' murders carefully,
brooded over it for years before he had the opportunity, but Cedric was only
an annoying fly to him, unworthy of a moment's consideration.  As for
Regulus, if Voldemort didn't think he was worthy of killing himself, perhaps
the death (which probably counts as a murder by Voldemort if he ordered it)
didn't create a big enough tear for a really good Whorecrux

Snow:
It makes more sense when you think about Voldemort asking Lily to
stand aside, as if she was meaningless, which she was. Harry was his
designed last death in which to make his final Horcrux but here
stands a defenseless Lily in the way of his objective, the boy the
prophecy said had powers, Voldemort couldn't risk it, the boy was too
close…oops reluctantly kill Lily, soul split.

I really like it and will stand on this one as a very good
possibility for the unarmed-murder-equals-soul-infraction.

Debbie:
The Riddles were unarmed, too.  And while I think that's not the
sole distinction between a killing that tears the soul and one that does
not, under criminal law (which was my worst subject in law school so you
shouldn't believe any of this!), killing an armed victim raises the
possibility of self defence and at a minimum creates circumstances that
remove the killing from the "cold blood" category.

Lyn again:


>    Just
> I can't really grow fond of the Hx thing. What if a guy kills a thousand
> people? what if a
> person kills ten thousand? Do we really have a little tear in the sole for
> each and every
> individual death--does their sole look as ragged as a fringed leather
> jacket on David
> Crosby?
>

Debbie:
Oh, what a great image!  Except the jacket would be full of patches where
attempts had been made to heal, or repair, the tears.  And missing pieces,
one for each Horsecrux.  But the tears are metaphorical, of course, because
the soul is not corporeal.

Debbie
who rather likes Whorecruxes, but found the Prophecy to be really lame


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