Logical Limitations

[Talisman]

Well, look at this swelling pile of unanswered posts.   Since I'm 
only sporadically willing/able to commit the time for lengthy 
responses, I'll try the piecemeal approach, where it seems workable.

An ideal place is Kneasy's logic challenge.  

My answer to the question is: No.

Even assuming that the goal of clean logic can even be reached, 
which is quite an achievement for humans (ask any Vulcan), I don't 
believe it will get you home.  Too many textual *facts* are variable 
depending on the over-arching theory, or lack thereof.  

`Tis the happy marriage of logic and intuition that produces 
results, either alone is a barren exercise (though of the two, 
intuition, with its own subconscious logic, is the better bet). 
Subject, still further, to the talents of the individuals involved. 

Nope.  All hope is lost.

Still, it's inspiring to watch Kneasy, bravely lashed to the helm of 
the HMS Verity, as it slips inexorably toward the plummeting 
cataract... .

I won't quite constrain myself to such  mean masters as irrefutable 
fact and sterile logic, but I will be happy to point out (purely to 
be helpful to the adventure <g>) how, if I'm correct, your *facts* 
are not. And generally make other such various and annoying 
observations, as may occur to me.

Lets begin with your *primary evidence.*  The labeling of such 
matter is a task of no small importance; the reader's error in this 
regard cannot later be charged to the author.

As primary evidence in the GH incident, you list:

>Kneasy:
>Input - Primary evidence:
>Harry's visions.
>Voldy's account.
>The properties of an AK.
>Wand P.I.
>The nature of Protective Magic.
>The Ministry battle.

Let's look at the first two, for now.

Item 1, Harry's visions:

I assume you mean the visions in PoA; the little that Harry sees in 
PS/SS is subsumed in these later ones, in any event.

It seems to me that the PoA visions come in two distinct flavors: 
Dementor and Boggart.

The only primary source for details of what a person might 
experience in a bona fide Dementor attack, is Harry. (Hagrid and 
Dudley just give us the general *bad memories/thought I'd never be 
happy again* bit.)

Because everything Harry sees on these occasions involves the 
mysterious GH, and is consonant with what others have previously 
told him, it is hard to evaluate the verity of the substance of 
those visions. But, I'm willing to go with *real events,* as opposed 
to *imagined fears.*

Keeping in mind the question of whether what is uncovered is 
objective *factual* events, or just what the victim *thinks* 
happened, we know that Boggart experiences are manifestly capable of 
being bogus (cf. Hermione's exam failure, etc.)

(Yes, even *logic* tells me that JKR inserted that bizarre false-
memory story into her biography for a reason.)
 
So, does a bogus Dementor (Boggart) produce an objective vision of a 
real, albeit heretofore forgotten, unhappy event? Or is the Boggart, 
no matter what it's form, limited to its old playground: the 
imagination?  

If the later, then a great deal of the PoA vision *evidence* has 
scarlet fins, including the *take Harry and run* business--which all 
fits in nicely with the evidence that only two bodies (Lily and 
Voldemort) were found at GH and that Lupin was surprised that Harry 
*heard* James in a GH vision. 

You see, Snow, I can be agreeable.

Item 2, Voldy's account

Talisman:
I do not think that much of Voldy's account is primary evidence. 
Maybe just the part about what he meant to do.  Unfortunately, this 
requires interpretation--though I think there is a clear chain of 
events.

LV had no idea what happened to him at GH, and all that time he had 
to fret about it in Albania did him no good.  

Here is your answer to why Q!mort did not Accio the stone instead of 
grabbing Harry. He had no idea that he could not touch Harry.

I don't think most, if any, wizard would have gone for an Accio when 
they could just reach out and grab what they wanted from a kid. 

As an analogy, the Twins might have Apparated downstairs *just to 
show they could* but the Elder Weasleys trot up and down the old 
fashioned way, even though they clearly can pop around when they 
feel it's warranted.

Q!Mort's magic was working just fine on Harry, and I'm sure he would 
have used it had he any inkling of what he was in for, but it was a 
total and decisive surprise to the DL that he could not touch the 
boy.

That's why the post-PS/SS LV goes to all the bother of the GoF 
scheme--to get Harry's blood and counter-act the touch-me-not effect.

But most everything that LV knows about GH, and Harry's protections, 
he got from long chats with Wormtail on the way back to Riddle 
Manor.  

His experience in SS (thoughtfully arranged by DD, partially for 
just this purpose) and Wormtail's account--aka DD's scant 
explanations to Harry and/or general Weasley knowledge as of the end 
of PoA--are the sum of LV's insight into the matter.

His self-serving reiteration of events in the Graveyard is as far 
from primary evidence as you can get. Sure, he wants to sound like 
he knows what's going on, his reputation is on the line, but it's 
all hearsay.  

And, only as much as DD allowed--knowing full well it would scamper 
back to Albania.

Then there's another bad incident with the Potter brat, loss of 
face, questions of potency.

Just wait till Snape totters in, all regret and oaths of fidelity, 
seasoned with tasty misinformation about the additional part of the 
prophecy and it's supposed usefulness. Presto: LV's totally 
predictable behavior in Book 5. 

LV knows what he meant to do at GH, and why, but he remains clueless 
about what actually happened. Just as he has no idea that he's been 
dancing to DD's tune all this time.

You may as well just ask DD what`s going on, and if you are relying 
on HIM to put quality data into the fact aggregator, you're in for 
some bitter tears.

Talisman, back with more flies for the ointment, later.