Logical Limitations

[Barry Arrowsmith]

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> wrote:
> 
> An ideal place is Kneasy's logic challenge.  
> 
> My answer to the question is: No.
> 
> Nope.  All hope is lost.
> 
> Still, it's inspiring to watch Kneasy, bravely lashed to the helm of 
> the HMS Verity, as it slips inexorably toward the plummeting 
> cataract... .
> 

Verity.
This brings to mind Verity Treacle, a construct of the inimitable
Kenny Everett who devised a long list of comic characters that greatly 
upset those wishing for ''wholesome" TV. Sid Snot, Cupid Stunt, Marcel
Wave; absolutely hilarious. Verity was a late night TV/Sunday morning 
oh, so caring and compassionate agony aunt and her slot always ended
with some well-loved personality being fed into a mincer while singing 
a song full of uplifting sentiments.
Not so far from the true Kneasy nature, now I come to think of it.

> 
> Lets begin with your *primary evidence.*  The labeling of such 
> matter is a task of no small importance; the reader's error in this 
> regard cannot later be charged to the author.
> 
> As primary evidence in the GH incident, you list:
> 
> >Kneasy:
> >Input - Primary evidence:
> >Harry's visions.
> >Voldy's account.
> 
> Let's look at the first two, for now.
> 
> Item 1, Harry's visions:
> 
> I assume you mean the visions in PoA; the little that Harry sees in 
> PS/SS is subsumed in these later ones, in any event.
> 
> It seems to me that the PoA visions come in two distinct flavors: 
> Dementor and Boggart.
> 

Er... no.
I didn't count any Boggart induced bits, just the PS/SS memories and
the Dementor triggered flashbacks in PoA. 

> The only primary source for details of what a person might 
> experience in a bona fide Dementor attack, is Harry. (Hagrid and 
> Dudley just give us the general *bad memories/thought I'd never be 
> happy again* bit.)
> 

Enough to base a case on.
Canonically Dementors don't add anything, they don't induce anything;
they take - any happy or pleasurable sensation or memory. 
Thus all that remains is misery and unhappy memories.
Boggarts, now. They do induce feelings - of fear; that's how they work,,
even though the fear may not have any connection with any actual
past experiences of the target 'victim'. I doubt Pavarti was ever chased
by an unravelling mummy, or Seamus by a Banshee.
As for further 'primary evidence', try Jo's descriptions of what they
represent.

 
> Because everything Harry sees on these occasions involves the 
> mysterious GH, and is consonant with what others have previously 
> told him, it is hard to evaluate the verity of the substance of 
> those visions. But, I'm willing to go with *real events,* as opposed 
> to *imagined fears.*
> 

True.
Makes one think that Privet Drive wasn't so bad after all - which would
be most upsetting for some posters on another list, could be what they
fear more than anything else. Ridikulous! they'd cry.

> Keeping in mind the question of whether what is uncovered is 
> objective *factual* events, or just what the victim *thinks* 
> happened, we know that Boggart experiences are manifestly capable of 
> being bogus (cf. Hermione's exam failure, etc.)
> 

Since Harry is too dim to ask penetrating, or indeed sensible questions
that might produce answers that give us clues to the back-story, and
since the whole shamoodle is presented from Harry's viewpoint, then
fragmented memories is a valid option for laying down markers, I'd have 
thought. How else are we going to get a handle on what's happened?
 
> (Yes, even *logic* tells me that JKR inserted that bizarre false-
> memory story into her biography for a reason.)
>  

Yep, she did - Molly in OoP.

> So, does a bogus Dementor (Boggart) produce an objective vision of a 
> real, albeit heretofore forgotten, unhappy event? Or is the Boggart, 
> no matter what it's form, limited to its old playground: the 
> imagination?  
> 

We don't know.
A Boggart masquerading as a Dementor turned up in the 3rd task in GoF,
but no memories were reported, just a feeling of clammy coldness - which
is often associated with fear, anyway.

> 
> Item 2, Voldy's account
> 
> I do not think that much of Voldy's account is primary evidence. 
> Maybe just the part about what he meant to do.  Unfortunately, this 
> requires interpretation--though I think there is a clear chain of 
> events.
> 
> LV had no idea what happened to him at GH, and all that time he had 
> to fret about it in Albania did him no good.  
> 
> Here is your answer to why Q!mort did not Accio the stone instead of 
> grabbing Harry. He had no idea that he could not touch Harry.
> 

Really?
Then how come he obviously knew about (but failed to foresee the use
of) the protective charms, and makes a point of saying that he couldn't 
touch but now can in the graveyard scene? Who could tell him?
Implanted 'recovered' memories from a DE counsellor looking to nail 
Harry in court for enormous damages?
"I was fine until I had contact with that kid," said a frail and shaken
Evil Overlord after the hearing. "Intensive therapy has brought the 
realisation that it's all his fault, and I'm suing for loss of earnings,
loss of body, indescribable pain, mental trauma and having to subsist
on Albanian cooking."

Awaiting further comment with interest.

Kneasy