Who knew that Peter was the Secret Keeper? (Was: After all this time...)

[mooseming]

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Just to be clear, I think that most of the discussion generated by 
> the poll answer, including my own observations, is outside the 
> useful parameters of textual expectation.  
<snip> 

Agreed!

> 
> The nut of the *note or not* issue is whether Wormtail told some 
> people about GH in such a manner as to leave them ignorant of his 
> status as SK. Or, conversely, whether knowledge of the GH hiding 
> place is tantamount to knowledge of Sirius's innocence.
> 
> It's not a question of what DD did or Wormtail *could* have done, 
> it's a matter of what happened, per Rowling.  *Passing notes* and 
> *telling directly* are cognizably two different methodologies.
> 
> If I asked a subordinate to please inform someone of something--
> specifying that they should *tell the person directly*--and later 
> found out they had merely dropped an unsigned note, I'm afraid it 
> would have to come up at review time.
> 
> Similarly, if someone *tells you directly* that they would love a 
> pound of limberger for their birthday, you might act with greater 
> confidence than if you were passed an unsigned note written in a 
> vaguely familiar hand.    
> 
> Like the treacheous cheese situation, the authenticity, or lack 
> thereof, of a purported SK communication would only be revealed 
once 
> acted upon.  Reflecting on this might, depending on your level of 
> concern for future friendship, or enemy bushwhacks, as the case 
may 
> be, lead to a heightened appreciation for the distinction between 
> anonymous notes and direct relation.

In a previous incarnation I managed `subordinates' and in my 
experience asking someone if they had `told so-and-so directly' 
almost always had to be followed up by `I mean did you *speak* to 
them not just send them an email?'. I accept that for you JKR is 
making a clear distinction with this statement, I'm more sceptical. 
I concur, however, that if she is being particular then someone must 
have known Sirius was innocent.


<snip>
> 
> But, why would Wormtail have passed a note to a member of the 
Order 
> telling them where the Potters where hiding?  

Perhaps because he was deliberately trying to hide the SK switch. 
Wormtail may have been acting as a spy for sometime prior to the GH 
showdown, both Lupin and Sirius believed someone was (POA p273). If 
he intended to give the Potter's to LV he wouldn't want the OotP to 
know he was the SK as it would blow his cover as soon as they were 
attacked. Hiding the switch would buy him time to get away in the 
event of retribution.

According to the 
> accepted WW version, Wormtail told LV within a week of the time 
> Sirius underwent the Fidelius.  Everything occurred within a 
matter 
> of days. Why would Wormtail have enabled the Order to be present 
for 
> LV's attack?
> 
> No, I rather think Wormtail told person or persons unknown (but 
> definitely suspected), who seemed to be DEs, but weren't.

Agreed it all points to a spy in LV's ranks. Admittedly here I 
struggle with the concept that the spy could remain ignorant of 
Wormtail's identity and warn Lily and James in person (the `Snape 
warned James but James was "too arrogant to believe (he) might be 
mistaken in Black"' theory I'm rather fond of!). At this point I 
have to fall back on the idea that not only did Wormtail tell LV by 
sending him a note but that LV left it hanging around and Snape was 
able to read it even though it wasn`t meant for him

(which is why 
Moody torched Harry's note btw). Not the neatest of plotting and 
rather too much use of the note approach but will suffice at a push!

> 
> And, he certainly wasn't anonymous with the DEs.  According to 
> Sirius, *all* the DEs--inside Azkaban and out--were aware that 
> gVoldemort went to the Pottersf on [Wormtail's] informationh 
(PoA 
> 368).  Crazed prisoners were literally screaming  about Wormtail's 
> double double-cross (some in an annoyingly babyish way, no doubt.)

It's possible the other DE's could have learnt it *after the event*. 
Assuming LV didn't disclose the identity of his ratty mole to all 
and sundry its certainly possible that Bella, at least, was party to 
the information which she could have disseminated from her cell in 
Azkaban. Though this still doesn't explain why Sirius' "He's at 
Hogwart's" was attended and the other ramblings not passed on. True 
Fudge went to Azkaban the night Sirius escaped and spoke to the 
guards, this is when they told him what Sirius had been saying (POA 
p54), maybe they don't usually report on prisoners' rantings, thin I 
admit!

As to whether DE's outside of Azkaban know, well we only have 
Sirius' word on this, how he would know is beyond me as he was 
locked away at the time.



<snip>
> 
> There is also the matter of how Rowling handles clues. 
> 
> She is very adept at couching information so that it is colored by 
> her audience's assumptions.  In this case, she moves from general 
> information about SKs, to specific information about Wormtail and 
> the Potters.  
> 
> It's worth noting how she shifts from general to specific.  Moose 
> finds it annoying that Rowling redirects the question back to 
> Wormtail.  I find it telling.

Oh no, not annoying, deeply suspicious on that we agree! Yes she 
could be directing us to re evaluate the who knows what of the GH 
FC, I maintain she could also be refusing to declare that DD is 
truly dead, why on earth discuss the live SK when you have a ready 
made dead one? Then again she could be telling us something about 
Snape, that he alone knew Sirius was innocent for example



As she picks the questions herself she may of course simply choose 
the ones to which she can give `factual' but unrevealing answers of 
which this is one.


<snip>
> 
> Mooseming:
> >If we take the other secret location as a model it was worded 
like 
> >this "The headquarters >of the OotP may be found at 12 Grimmauld 
> >Place." Therefore we get something like 'the >home/hiding place 
of 
> >James, Lily and Harry Potter may be found at 'some place', 
> >Godric's Hollow. 
> 
<snip>
> 
> If we are going to amuse ourselves with this idle exercise, I 
think 
> it behooves us to  consider word choice carefully, just as someone 
> contemplating a Fidelius Charm should.
> 
><snip>

> I'm not sure that *home* is a natural or necessary part of your 
> hypothetical secret.  

Briefly on the whole wording thing
.I chose `home' because it is how 
DD describes the safety of Privet Drive, `as long as you can call it 
home'. Home to me is not about who is alive or dead, present or 
absent, a post code address or a physical building its an idea with 
no fixed points of reference, perfect for the complex FC in my 
opinion.


<snip>
> Talisman saying, dead or alive, DD's got his fingers in the pie. 
I'd 
> be perfectly happy to let the old schemer pike to the dusties--but 
I 
> know he's out there, and by now, I expect, well behind enemy lines.
>

Mooseming saying sadly she no longer believes there will be a tricky 
plot involving dodgy DD or indeed any really trick plot. However, 
she firmly supports those carrying the flag and may yet rejoin the 
ranks....