Who knew that Peter was the Secret Keeper? (Was: After all this time...)

[Talisman]

Just to be clear, I think that most of the discussion generated by 
the poll answer, including my own observations, is outside the 
useful parameters of textual expectation.  That is, none of it has 
analytical utility, with the possible exception of the previously 
noted information about Wormtail's specific behavior. To wit:

Talisman previously, quoting JKR:
>*The only people who ever knew their [the Potters's] precise 
location  were those whom >Wormtail had told directly...*  (FAQ poll 
answer)

I, for one, will be keeping this statement in mind as I find out who 
was present at GH that fateful Halloween night.  It's certainly not 
the lynchpin of any of my theories, but it could offer additional 
confirmatory evidence.

Talisman previously:
>That deflates the Wormtail-handed-out-little-notes theory, as well. 

Mooseming:
>Does it? Why? DD told Harry about 12 Grimmauld Place using a note, 
why couldn't >Wormtail also communicate using handy post its?

(This answer applies to Judy's agreement with MM's statement, as 
well.)

The nut of the *note or not* issue is whether Wormtail told some 
people about GH in such a manner as to leave them ignorant of his 
status as SK. Or, conversely, whether knowledge of the GH hiding 
place is tantamount to knowledge of Sirius's innocence.

It's not a question of what DD did or Wormtail *could* have done, 
it's a matter of what happened, per Rowling.  *Passing notes* and 
*telling directly* are cognizably two different methodologies.

If I asked a subordinate to please inform someone of something--
specifying that they should *tell the person directly*--and later 
found out they had merely dropped an unsigned note, I'm afraid it 
would have to come up at review time.

Similarly, if someone *tells you directly* that they would love a 
pound of limberger for their birthday, you might act with greater 
confidence than if you were passed an unsigned note written in a 
vaguely familiar hand.    

Like the treacheous cheese situation, the authenticity, or lack 
thereof, of a purported SK communication would only be revealed once 
acted upon.  Reflecting on this might, depending on your level of 
concern for future friendship, or enemy bushwhacks, as the case may 
be, lead to a heightened appreciation for the distinction between 
anonymous notes and direct relation.


It's fairly accepted that someone besides LV and baby Harry 
witnessed GH and survived to tell what happened.  Anyone there must 
have known where to find the Potters.  According to Rowling, 
Wormtail would have told them directly.  I merely suggest that such  
person or persons --and anyone they reported to-- also knew that 
Sirius was innocent.

(Even before a secret is negated, there is no evidence that someone 
who knows the identity of the SK can't pass on that information--
albeit not the secret itself.)

DD dispatched Hagrid early on, and the news of GH was all over the 
British WW by dawn (McG knew it by the time she showed up at Privet 
Drive). 

So who was spreading the news?  I suppose it's just possible that 
some shell-shocked DE was stumbling around, babbling information, 
which was overheard by a DD loyalist, who just happened to be 
nearby, and who then notified DD, etc.  But it really seems more 
likely to have been someone intentionally involved in the event and 
aligned with the Order, doesn't it? 

Back to the whole note-passing business.  DD used this *indirect* 
method of communication because he was systematically avoiding 
contact with Harry--until Sirius's death made Harry Voldproof--and 
until DD had tested the efficacy of this prophylactic by arranging 
for/allowing the possession test.  (Yes, DD is responsible for 
Siruis's death, as well as for keeping him on ice in Azkaban. It's 
rough, I know.) 

But, why would Wormtail have passed a note to a member of the Order 
telling them where the Potters where hiding?  According to the 
accepted WW version, Wormtail told LV within a week of the time 
Sirius underwent the Fidelius.  Everything occurred within a matter 
of days. Why would Wormtail have enabled the Order to be present for 
LV's attack?

No, I rather think Wormtail told person or persons unknown (but 
definitely suspected), who seemed to be DEs, but weren't.

And, he certainly wasn't anonymous with the DEs.  According to 
Sirius, *all* the DEs--inside Azkaban and out--were aware that 
gVoldemort went to the Pottersf on [Wormtail's] informationh (PoA 
368).  Crazed prisoners were literally screaming  about Wormtail's 
double double-cross (some in an annoyingly babyish way, no doubt.)

Remember? That's why he *had* to go back for LV--between the Order 
and the DEs, he had no other option, once his ratty cover was blown 
(per DD's design).

It's been discussed before how the guards reported what they heard 
in Azkaban (372), this alone, without the many arguments for DD's 
pre-knowledge of the event, should suggest to readers how unlikely 
it would be for the extremely prescient DD to continue to think 
Sirius was the traitor.  Seems like youfd have witnesses aplenty, 
if you wanted to get Sirius out of jail.

There is also the matter of how Rowling handles clues. 

She is very adept at couching information so that it is colored by 
her audience's assumptions.  In this case, she moves from general 
information about SKs, to specific information about Wormtail and 
the Potters.  

It's worth noting how she shifts from general to specific.  Moose 
finds it annoying that Rowling redirects the question back to 
Wormtail.  I find it telling.

You have to choose to read her comments about Wormtail as being 
merely illustrative of the general proposition (hence subject to 
interpretation in light of all SK evidence) in order to allow DD to 
(inexplicably) know about GH via an anonymous note--thereby 
remaining innocent of the knowledge that Wormtail controlled the 
secret.

Yet, Rowling has already established that Wormtail's involvement was 
widely known to the Dark side, and DD has plenty of inteligence from 
that quarter.

I say she's giving you another chance to recognize DD's involvement 
as you read Book 7.

If you choose not to see any such import in her comments, you are 
simply voting that no useful information whatsoever came of the SK 
question.

It's close enough to that, as it is.  Yet, even if that is the case, 
there is plenty of other evidence of DD's knowledge.

Mooseming:
>If we take the other secret location as a model it was worded like 
>this "The headquarters >of the OotP may be found at 12 Grimmauld 
>Place." Therefore we get something like 'the >home/hiding place of 
>James, Lily and Harry Potter may be found at 'some place', 
>Godric's Hollow. 

Here again, there is little relevance to justify spinning elaborate--
and largely speculative--explanations.  Something obviously voided 
the secret; whether one chooses to interpret it as error or design 
depends on who crafted the language--a question bereft of canon--and 
probably not important to the remaining story.  I forgive us all on 
the grounds that--having waited for the FAQ poll answer, we feel 
compelled to find some fun in it--doomed as the impulse may be.  

In any event, the inclusion of a street address in my examples was 
drawn from the 12GP model, but, as I discussed earlier, that alone 
does not account for the Potter FC being negated by structural 
damage.  

Moreover, the Order is a somewhat more fungible unit than Harry and 
his parents.  Any number of members can join, leave, be killed, or 
simply evaporate without nullifying the secret.  Not necessarily so 
the Potters.

If we are going to amuse ourselves with this idle exercise, I think 
it behooves us to  consider word choice carefully, just as someone 
contemplating a Fidelius Charm should.

If the Potter secret only applied to a coherent group of three 
specific, living, Potters, the death of any family member could 
dispel the charm.

Was that the desired effect? How long did the Potters expect to stay 
in the house?  Was there no possibility that Lily or James would 
venture out--albeit risking death?

If they were laying low for the long haul, but not expecting to be 
totally imprisoned in the house, it seems foolish to cast the charm 
as an all or nothing proposition. 

However, if an attack were expected in the near future, expected to 
be fatal to the Potter adults, and one wanted access to the property 
when the smoke cleared, one might construct a charm that would 
accommodate that scenario.

Indeed, one might construct a charm that would fail upon any indicia 
of attack at the residence--if one were expecting one....  

That's all I'm saying.

Moose:
>This protects from questions like 'where are they, where can I find 
>them, where do they live?' and would presumably 'break' if said 
>home was destroyed.

I'm not sure that *home* is a natural or necessary part of your 
hypothetical secret.  Sirius lived at 12GP, but calling it Order HQ 
seems to have been enough to protect him.  Why not just say *the 
Potters may be found at  XYZ?* 

I'm also not sure that 12GP would lose protection if it suffered 
structural damage, say due to a nasty Bundimun infestation (all that 
scuttling under the floorboards), or someone getting drunk and 
trying to curse certain portraits or tapestries off the walls, etc. 

So, I still say that if the Potter secret were intentionally bound 
to structural integrity, or required all three Potters to remain 
alive, I would be inclined to see that as...advanced planning. 

Moose:
>1st off why did people vote for this question? Well perhaps they 
>were interested in what >happened to 12 Grimmauld Place and its 
>standing as headquarters for the OotP.

Time out. Is that really more interesting than how to destroy Hxes?  
Really?  Did people expect HQ problems to be a big issue in the 
denouement?  Somehow, this is not a comfort to my irritation.

12GP wasn't the HQ in *the old days* or even much prior to Book 5, 
and it was abandoned as HQ immediately after Sirius's death. (At 
which time the standing 12GP Fidelius was negated.) 

Incidentally, DD never actually said that the Order had moved back 
in.

I don't know why he should want them to.  He's so hot to have Harry 
go it alone (or at least go it *Trio*) on the Hx mission, and 12GP 
is Harry's base of operations when/if he's not at Hogwarts (though 
I'm sure we'll get back there).  

Why have a lot of meddling Order members around to ask Harry what 
he's up to, etc.?  Who needs McGonagall up his tookus?

Anyway, even if DD died (which he didn't) the Order could simply 
relocate their HQ again, which I'm sure they have done anyway--if 
they actually ever moved back in--because though DD didn't die, at 
least most of them think he did. (Bottom line, he isn't handy to 
initiate anyone new.)  

There again, upon relocation the secret would be negated and the 
Fidelius would lapse, without regard to the status of the SK.   All 
real estate problems are resolved. 

If someday they wished to re-establish HQ at 12GP, it would be a 
whole new event requiring another charm, fresh SK, etc.

Tempest in a teapot.


  Moose:
> Perhaps they were also hoping to trick JKR into saying something 
>about the demise, or otherwise of DD. 

Trick...?  Huh?  Wha..? Disconcert her by choosing an unexpected 
question so she'll blurt something out? 

Alas, I fear she already knew--and had carefully thought out--her 
answers to all of the questions SHE selected for the poll, before 
she ever offered them to us.

Moreover, if she had wanted to dangle any *dead or alive?* teasers, 
she could have worked them into the Hx answer, just as well.

Please, SK people, don't be tricky any more.

Moose:
>JKR answers the question, saying she is `surprised' it was 
>popular... 

Because it promised--and yielded--very little.

Moose:
>...and then doesn't answer with reference to the `dead' 
>secret .keeper but to the living one,doesn't mention DD at all, 
>not even in passing. 

Turns out she's not that dim, after all.

Again, I see her effort to steer the answer toward GH as pointing to 
the only potentially meaningful information in the entire response: 
knowledge of GH hideout = knowledge of SK Wormtail.  

Moose:
>Completely by the by in the faq section she also answers one 
>regarding the school song >and states: "Dumbledore called for the 
>school song when he was feeling particularly >buoyant, but times 
are >becoming ever darker in the wizarding world. Should >Dumbledore 
ever >suggest a rousing encore, you may assume that he is on top 
form once >more." 

Well, that was written before Book 6 came out--and there are no 
guarantees that a rousing encore is forthcoming.   But, yes, she 
certainly teases with it.

Moose:
>Hum so she won't state on her fan site that DD is dead (even 
>obliquely) and she >indicates he might be around for future choral 
>celebrations. Makes you wonderEeven me >and I was firmly in the 
>`poisoned, shot, dropped from a great height how dead do you >need 
>him to be' school of thought.

The entire series foreshadows a major faked death--with clues 
tightening to a crescendo in Book 6.  The most felicitous placement 
is: faked death in 6, revelation in 7.  

I won't rehash the myriad clues and DD's obvious awareness of 
unfolding events, or the whole phoenix angle. But, it's all out 
there. 

(By the way, Rowling has said we'll see Fawkes in 7.  Would it be 
futile to reiterate how Fawkes's appearance, in any matter, 
implicates DD?) 

Talisman saying, dead or alive, DD's got his fingers in the pie. I'd 
be perfectly happy to let the old schemer pike to the dusties--but I 
know he's out there, and by now, I expect, well behind enemy lines.