Re: What might Lilly have known that DD didn’t?

[Lyn J. Mangiameli]

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy at ...> wrote:
> 
> Lily clearly thought that Voldemort intended to kill Harry; she 
> said "kill me instead." So, this implies that Lily was suggesting 
> Voldemort kill her and then use her body as a horcrux, rather than 
> doing the same to Harry.  I suppose a dead body could be used as a 
> horcrux -- yuck! It does seem that inferi don't decompose, since the 
> ones in the cave were still intact, but -- yuck!
> 
> Anyway, given that Lily thought Voldemort planned to kill Harry, I 
> don't think she believed that Voldemort would possess Harry in the 
> process of making him into a Horcrux, therefore "overwriting" Harry's 
> soul.  If Harry were killed, and his body was then made into a 
> horcrux afterwards, his soul would already be gone, and in no danger 
> of being overwritten.  But if Voldemort possessed Harry before 
> killing him, he'd presumably be at risk of doing damage to himself, 
> since he'd be in the body he was killing. 

Lyn here:
Our different views hinge quite a bit on they way in which we define the word "kill." I am 
positing that Rowling's usage of kill may be more expansive than simply to end biological 
functioning. I'm suggesting the possibility that to deprive one of one's soul (say, by 
substituting one soul for another within the same body) might be considered a form of 
killing, yet leave a physical body biologically intact and functioning. Don't we presently 
face similar issues when a person is found to be "brain dead," yet an otherwise functioning 
body. 

So, I'm suggesting there is no need for a decomposing body to bring about the end of an 
adversary, achieve a death if you will. As I mentioned earlier, to extinguish the soul of a 
person is far more powerful "killing" than simply destroying their body. I find this 
consistent with Rowling's choice of using the word "vanquish" in the prophecy and with 
respect to DD and Grindenwald. 

I must also return to a point that most satisfied with an AK attempt on Harry consitently 
choose to overlook, that is, that during the prior incantatem scene in the graveyard, all of 
LV's uses of his wand are revealed back to Jame's death, and that there is NO regurgitation 
of any wand based spell cast against Harry. Rowling had two chances at writing this scene, 
and in both she leaves out any wand based action against Harry. No scar, no scream, 
nothing. While others such as Olivander and DD may speculate and assume what 
happened that night, the PI is about as close to a literal record of what occurred as has 
thus far been accessible from JKR. This, for some of us, leads us to seek another 
explanation and means for LV's assault on Harry.

If one goes with the possibility, which most believe DD suggests, that LV choose Hx 
receptacles from those of special significance to him, what could be of greater significance 
than his prophesied nemisis. Should Nagini be a Hx, then this may in part be his practice 
attempt (perhaps occuring after hearing of the prophecy) at preparing for making a human 
Hx. 

Back to Judy: 
> Also, Lily really had no reason to think that Voldemort would be 
> making a horcrux so long after he gained power...... SNIP......  And, why would Lily 
> even think to ask Slughorn about horcruxes? 

A crucial question, and one I don't have a present answer to......just maybe, because JKR 
had deliberately witheld so much information about Lily. But I am confident of one thing, 
there is much more to Lily than has thus far been revealed. Many have previously assumed 
Lily may have worked in the DoMM. I am particularly tantalized by Rowling's decision to let 
us know that the handwriting in the Potions textbook might well have been from a woman. 

Judy again:
> I see Lily's "take me, kill me instead" as pretty realistic dialogue 
> for someone whose husband was just murdered and who expected her baby 
> to be murdered, too.  I don't really see any hidden clues in what she 
> says to Voldemort. 
> 
I fully accept your view as a fair, realistic, and conservative reading of the text available to 
us. It just seems insufficient to me to take in all the facts (such as the PI at the graveyard), 
and possibilities. I approach the series as more of a morality play set within a mystery, and 
so I still tend to explore possible solutions to the mystery that would be consistent with 
the moral themes she appears to return to. It's rather ironic really, that this atheist is 
going on so about loss of soul rather than physical death, but then that's my take on a 
possible way JKR is conceiving of this.