SHIP: RE: not so long response (was Long Post Re: R/HYule Ball

[Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 13792

Hi --

I will want to reply to the "Long" version of Firoza's post later when I
have more time, but wanted to make a few quick comments here.

First, my compliments to Firoza.  I like people who use logic in their
analysis, and your post definitely does that.  You're working with a few
flawed assumptions about the H/H position though .... so I do need to at
least correct those before we could have a proper debate.  I'm cutting &
pasting some of your basic assumptions from your long post here ...
although, like I said, I'm short on time this morning & cannot respond
to all your long post points in this message.

Note: I'm using "My" opinions, which may or may not speak for the entire
H/H community.

As an aside, you should be careful: you're soon going to have my
reputation for being "overly vehement" in your posts!  <vbg>

firoza10 at yahoo.com wrote:

> Many of the H/H fans see Ron is an open book so it's obvious that he
> likes Hermione, but Hermione is not so easy to read therfore doesn't
> like Ron back. We R/H fans agree that Hermione is not so easy to read
> but the signs she likes Ron back are there, and have been covered in
> detail before so I will not reiterate them now. Well, if Hermione is
> not so easy to decipher, then how do you H/H fans deduce she likes
> Harry instead? Aaahhh, subtext right.
>
My position is not: Hermione is hard to decipher and *therefore* doesn't
like Ron back.  My position is simply that Hermione is hard to
decipher.  Period.  It can be argued that she likes Harry.  It can also
be argued that she likes Ron.  We H/H types deduce that it's possible
that she likes Harry the same way that you all deduce she possibly likes
Ron: reading her overt actions, her remarks *and* the subtext.

> I only discovered this wonderful group after Christmas, so I am still
> waiting to hear all about this 'subtext' that emphatically shows that
> Hermione likes Harry not Ron.
>
No subtext "emphatically" shows Hermione likes Harry and not Ron.  It
can be intepreted both ways.  It all depends on which evidence each
individual gives more weight to.  You'll be able to read the full H/H
position (hopefully with some of the latest theories under development
by Ebony, Carole & others) in the "Potential Romance Pairings" FAQ,
which will be uploaded soon (as soon as it can technically be taken care
of by the techies).

> Also, for FITD, if Ron likes Hermione, Hermione likes Harry, and Harry likes Cho/no one/someone outside the
> Trio (if I am correct and that is FITD) then how does that support
> H/H? I always thought that it took two people to make a relationship
>  so if Harry doesn't like Hermione back romantically how does FITD
> support H/H?
>
FITD doesn't support H/H as much as it detracts from R/H.  If it takes 2
people to make a relationship work and Herminone likes Harry and not Ron
(as FITD posits), then R/H won't occur.  FITD does not then logically
dictate that H/H will follow since Harry has as yet never expressed any
interest in Hermione.

My belief is that H/H *could* follow later because I see the two
characters as being very well-suited for one another eventually.  If
Hermione expresses her interest in him and once he's eventually defeated
Voldy, well .... who's to say what might happen later on when they're
adults & out of school?

What I do believe wholeheartedly is that JKR is going FITD in the canon
(rather than R/H).  I also can't imagine that she's going OBHWF at this
point since Ginny is a complete non-entity.  You can make arguments both
ways (FITD or R/H), and either way is quite quite plausible.  She could
go either direction from where she left everything in GoF (IMO).

> I think that H/H fans who believe in FITD are saying then is that Harry may not like Hermione
> on the surface, but he loves her in subtext, so eventually he will
> like her back? Seems pretty farfetched to me, since all the books are
> from Harry's POV.
>
Nope.  Dead wrong assumption.  We'll forgive you since you're new (<g>),
but that is most assuredly not the position of the H/H types.  I don't
even have to qualify that as my opinion.  Any of the H/H types would
back me up here.  None of us can make any straight-faced argument that
Harry likes Hermione back in a romantic way *at this point*.  Jim
Flanagan did make a nice argument that it's *possible* that the
vehemence of Harry's denial of a romance between himself & Hermione when
confronted by Krum could be an indication that he's repressing something
(and Jim is not even a shipper of any stripe).  But that is the closest
thing to an argument for subtext that Harry might like Hermione.

> Now as an expert in subtext, I am sure that Penny agrees that
> the subtext of 'something going on' is the implication that Hermione
> and Ron have romantic feelings.
>
The sarcasm directed at me personally is really pretty unnecessary.
I've never held myself out as an "expert" in subtextual interpretation.
It's that sort of remark that tends to put people off the shipping
debates.  You did keep most of your post in a light-hearted vein, so
I'll just ignore it but wanted to point out that we could all do without
sarcastic remarks directed at a specific person.  I'll address the
substance of the above in a later post.

> As I mentioned in my long post, these are MY opinions and are in no
> way meant to imply that H/H is wishful thinking, as Carole has put
> into my mouth :-). I will not go over it all again, but I believe
> once again that the R/H and H/H stance to what JKR will eventually do
> remains unchanged (as I mentioned in my post, it was NOT meant to
> change the H/H viewpoint, only clarify why we R/H-er's are so sure
> that R/H is the way JKR is headed<g>) So, please do not take umbrage
> at my OPINIONS, as I do not take any umbrage at yours *smile* This
> debate is all in good nature (as I mentioned in my previous post as
> well).

I didn't interpret Carole's post as "taking umbrage" at your opinions.
Quite the contrary.  She was posing questions -- asking you to clarify
some of your statements.  That's what a *debate* is.

> As for JKR doing R/H and then 'tearing them asunder', as Carole has
> pointed out, HP is not a romance, even if romance will play a minor
> role, and I respectively disagree with her. It is my OPINION that
> JKR, who is doing such a slow build up to ANY sort of romance in the
> HP books, will with only one or two books remaining have R/H hook up
> and then break up so, as dramatic as that may be <g>.

There are 3 books left -- plenty of time for a teenage relationship to
come & go IMO.  :--)

> And how does R/H breaking up have anything to do with their 'exploring
> feelings of loss and betrayal and individuals deciding to do what is
> good for them vs. what is good for the wizard community as a whole'.

I think Carole was probably hinting at future plots that some of us have
speculated about.  Scenarios such as: (a) Hermione telling Ron she
doesn't like him back & that she likes Harry instead, and Ron possibly
misinterpreting (or correctly interpreting) Harry as returning
Hermione's feelings and betraying Harry as a result; (b) Harry
developing romantic feelings for Hermione but shoving her aside because
he wouldn't want to endanger her (this holds true for any person he
might have romantic interest in btw, including Ginny), etc.  There is,
IMO, the potential for a romantic subplot that works into the main
struggle between Voldemort & the good guys.

> I agree with Carole, that we cannot
> possible know what JKR has up her sleeve as far as relationships and
> their repercussions. But since relationships are not the main focus
> of HP as we all agree, as dramatic and imaginative as it would be to
> have R/H (or even H/H ;-) to happen only for the couple to be later
> torn asunder, I don't think JKR has TIME to explore that aspect if
> Harry and Company's main concern is to fight Voldemort.

Again, see above.  I'm sure some of our creative fanfic writers can come
up with even more possibilities.  Even though it is impossible to
accurately predict exactly which course JKR is likely to take, it bears
noting that there is more than one possibility for a romance subplot
being tied up into the main overarching struggle in the books.

> Well yes, I could predict the tone of GoF since JKR had stressed in
> chats and interviews held prior to the release of GoF, that the tone
> of the books would get darker and that there would be deaths starting
> in Book IV.

We all knew it would be darker, but I will note that I was extremely
surprised that Voldemort returned to power at the end of Book 4 (I would
have predicted Book 6 at the earliest).

> And JKR has said the remaining books will be getting even
> darker so really, the romance angle will most likely be very minor

What if Ron dies whilst trying to undo his mistaken betrayal of Harry?
Dark ... involves the romance subplot .... also involves the struggle
against Voldemort.

> Book IV was massive, but I doubt that the next three books will be as
> 'massive', as much as we would wish it otherwise, so again romance is
> most likely going to only be a side note <vbg>.

I can't predict with Books 5 or 6 but JKR said Book 7 promises to be the
"Encyclopedia Brittanica" it will be so long.  I'll find the reference
on that when I go back through the chats to address your other points.

> As Carole said, this IS just the beginning for these relationships to
> happen, but IMO, breaking up R/H to make way for H/H does not follow
> the tone of the books,

Who's said that the only reason for a R/H breakup would be to "make way
for H/H"?  They might just find themselves ill-suited.  Ron might even
break up with Hermione.  Gasp!  :--)

> Now, I have to ask, if the shoe was on the other foot and H/H was the
> way JKR was headed <g>, would H/H fans be so quick to predict it not
> lasting into adulthood?

Actually, possibly.  Most of us H/H types see it as something that
develops later -- post-Voldy defeat, when the characters are adults,
when they've matured, had other relationships, lived a little.

> Would it still be dramatic to have H/H split
> up in order for them to 'explore their feelings of loss and betrayal'

Yes!

> Why is it that a relationship started as teens can work for H/H but
> not for R/H?

Most of us don't see H/H happening while they're teens.  If it did, it
might work.  Then again, R/H might work too.  I just see R/H as being so
fundamentally incompatible though that I don't see it working when
they're 27 anymore than I see it working when they're 17.  Just my
opinion.

> Even though some H/H fans say
> that they see H/H post-Hogwarts, from the vigour of the Yule Ball
> debate and the shipping debates in general, most H/H fans do see
> a 'subtext' for H/H even as teens, so why are H/H fans so sure H/H
> will last into adulthood, but R/H cannot possibly do so?

Again, you've misinterpreted the subtext argument.  The subtext argument
has to do with Hermione's feelings for Harry, which in & of itself does
not support H/H as teens.  Harry has no interest in her as yet.

Penny (who really must dash!)


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